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Mr. Morley: To balance its budget this year, Humberside police took £750,000 from its reserves in order to solve its funding problems and meet its commitments. The Minister may quibble about the figures, but I have confidence in the chief constable of Humberside. Whatever the real figures are and however much is spent on changing the name, that represents money being diverted from fighting crime and protecting the interests of the people of Humberside. How can the Minister justify that?
Mr. Maclean: If that is how he feels, the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) should have voted against the amendment yesterday in the free vote in Committee.
Humberside has been generously funded; there can be no quibble about that. If it took money from reserves, that is because the 5 per cent. increase last year allowed it to build up generous balances.
The crucial and fundamental point is this: yesterday in Committee I made it absolutely clear that the Government were neutral on this issue. I warned my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes that I could not support his amendment and said that I would vote against him; I warned him that he would probably lose. If my hon. Friend had lost in Committee yesterday, the Government would not be coming here today with an amendment to reverse a free vote in Committee--that would be intolerable.
Similarly, I do not propose to reverse an amendment that yesterday went through on a free vote, with no one voting against it. I am content to advise my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench and in the Government that, although we had a free vote on the issue yesterday in which members of the Government abstained, the Government will not try to overturn tonight an amendment that was passed by a free vote. We will support the Bill as it stands.
Mr. Michael:
The hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) demonstrated the foolishness of trying to be too clever with his amendment yesterday, but the Minister has compounded that by making himself look ridiculous today. This is a local issue, and it should be decided by local opinion. Yesterday, I thought the Minister agreed with that point.
I am surprised that the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes has not learnt the importance of listening to local people, but in the debate he made clear his absurd obsession with grinding the name of Humberside into oblivion, irrespective of the impact on policing or whether £1 million might be taken out of the police budget. That money should be spent on preventing, fighting and detecting crime in the constituencies of my hon. Friends the Members for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) and for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara). The hon. Gentleman is not interested in that--he is interested only in the name.
Mr. Michael Brown:
I cannot believe my ears. The hon. Gentleman served on the Committee and yesterday had the opportunity to defeat me. If he and all Opposition Members had voted against my amendment, I would have lost. Why did he not vote against me?
Mr. Michael:
It is perfectly clear, and I shall come to that question in a moment. The hon. Gentleman tabled amendments, and in the course of the debate I asked the Minister, who had not referred to any consultations undertaken by his Department, to tell us about any such consultations and about the wishes of the local police authority and others. The Minister did not answer that question--he did not tell us the views of the local police authority. He said, in a low-key manner:
Mr. Maclean:
Obviously, the Labour party is in a blind panic tonight. Having agreed with, and not opposed, my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes yesterday and said nothing in Committee, letting an amendment go through on the nod, why does the hon. Gentleman oppose it tonight?
Mr. Michael:
Because I am able to answer the question that I asked the Minister, which he was unable to answer in Committee. The Minister abrogated his responsibility by not consulting on the amendment in Committee and maintained his neutrality there but, ridiculously, he says that tonight he will not give the House the choice, but will vote to spend £1 million on a change of name over a period, instead of allowing that £1 million to be spent on policing local communities in Humberside.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 106, Noes 271.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Amendments made: No. 19, in page 75, line 7, leave out 'and'.
"The chief constable certainly sees no need for change; nor does Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary recommend that any change is essential."--[Official Report, Standing Committee F, 18 March 1997; c. 282.]
After we emerged from the Committee, I saw a letter that had been sent to the deputy Leader of the Opposition expressing the chief constable's opposition. It was not the
gentle opposition that the Minister had suggested, but strong and passionate opposition of the sort that has been illustrated by my hon. Friends tonight. The chief constable wrote:
"Such a change could only have perceived symbolic advantage, particularly when there are other agencies continuing to use 'Humberside' as part of their title . . . Not only is change unnecessary, but to implement it would cost in the region of a million pounds."
That is why my hon. Friends have come today to say on behalf of their constituents that they believe that £1 million expenditure would be more beneficial to their constituency if it was spent on crime prevention and on policing in their areas, rather than on a change of name.
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alton, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Austin-Walker, John
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bennett, Andrew F
Bermingham, Gerald
Betts, Clive
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)
Chisholm, Malcolm
Church, Ms Judith
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Corbett, Robin
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dobson, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Ms Angela
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Don (Bath)
Gerrard, Neil
Godman, Dr Norman A
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hardy, Peter
Harvey, Nick
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Hutton, John
Janner, Greville
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Kilfoyle, Peter
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)
McCrea, Rev William
Macdonald, Calum
McGrady, Eddie
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclennan, Robert
McWilliam, John
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Martlew, Eric
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Morgan, Rhodri
Mowlam, Ms Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Paisley, Rev Ian
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Mrs Bridget
(Lewisham E)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Rooker, Jeff
Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Snape, Peter
Spearing, Nigel
Straw, Jack
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Touhig, Don
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Wright, Dr Tony
Mr. Kevin McNamara and
Mr. Elliot Morley.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Beggs, Roy
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Couchman, James
Curry, Rt Hon David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton,
Rt Hon Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, Sir John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildf'd)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, Rt Hon John
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, Rt Hon John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strangf'd)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Walker, A Cecil (Belfast N)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Richard Ottaway and
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin.
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