House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Mar 1997 (pt 49)

9.8 pm

Ms Mowlam: With the leave of the House, I shall wind up for the Opposition very briefly. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes) made his usual clear and positive contribution to the debate, and I reinforce his remarks about the British-Irish body, which is something at which we will want to look in future. His comments were constructive and were made in the face of some of this evening's more interesting contributions.

I also wish to reinforce the point made by the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) about the history of local government in Northern Ireland, which is a terribly important subject. We must never forget the sectarianism that functioned at local government level in the past and that persists in some areas. Equally, it would be helpful to acknowledge those local government bodies that have improved and in which cross-party work takes place. They represent a far more positive experience.

I also want to throw into the pot the local authority partnerships and the 26 district councils, where, with European money, work of a positive nature is being done across the divide, not only by local politicians, but by community groups, businesses and trade unions. Those experiences should not be lost. I accept the logic of the hon. Gentleman's comment that, if we take part of the jigsaw outside the talks process, we begin to weaken the talks process, but it is important to look at how we can begin to build trust and confidence in areas around the talks process in the hope of moving it forward.

The contributions from many hon. Members reinforced the view expressed by Labour Members on the need to revisit the issue of improving accountability and transparency across the board in Northern Ireland. We are intent on doing that and I hope that, to some extent, that answers the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson). Hon. Members on both sides of the House this evening--especially my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Rutherglen (Mr. McAvoy)--have reinforced our view that we should look at the history of the Scottish Grand Committee, because there may be positive lessons for a potential Northern Ireland Grand Committee.

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Labour will not divide the House on this motion. We have said many times that it is important that we should let the measure through. However, we shall review it, if we are given the chance in government.

9.11 pm

Sir Patrick Mayhew: I must begin a short winding-up speech by thanking those right hon. and hon. Members who have expressed kind wishes for what has been described as my after-life. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) wished me a happy eternity, which good wishes I gratefully acknowledge and reciprocate. Kind suggestions were made as to how I might employ myself; the only plan that I have made is to buy a horse, and now that there is no concern about a by-election, that will cause no anxiety to anybody.

This has been a valuable debate, and I welcome the Opposition's support for the motion. A number of general points have been made: first, that it is a good idea, but it comes at the wrong time; secondly, that it is a good idea, but the Committee is wrongly constituted; thirdly, that it is a bad idea, primarily because Unionists seem to want it, nevertheless we favour accountability; fourthly, that it is a bad idea because it is a pay-off, the last cashing of a cheque; and, fifthly, that it is a bad idea because it will prejudice the outcome of the talks. I should like briefly to deal with some--although probably not all--of those points.

In respect of the argument that it is a good idea but the wrong time, I should like to point out that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced the measure back in October. Thereafter, within a few days, I wrote to party leaders asking for their views and saying that it would be nice if we could introduce the measure with the support of everybody. It is enough to say that some were more prompt than others in responding. Nevertheless, here we are, and if it is a good idea then it is never too late to introduce it.

To the assertion that it is some sort of pay-off, I say, well, big deal--the number of times we have had the Ulster Unionists voting against us does not suggest that we have received good value for money. I hope that the House will look at the proposal on its merits and will see it for what it is intended to be--an enhancement of accountability. The first thing I said when I got to Northern Ireland, nearly five years ago, was that I wanted to get rid of direct rule. The sort of responsibilities and powers I have are absurd--absolutely ridiculous. I want locally elected people to take responsibility for some necessarily rather hard decisions.

As for the argument that the Grand Committee is a bad idea because Unionists want it, it seems an odd way of forming one's opinion to decide that, if someone else wants something, it must be bad.

I want to make a serious point about the constitution of the Committee. We have endeavoured to make it a practical Committee. If it was limited to Ulster Members only, it would be a much smaller Committee than either of the other two Grand Committees, and it is of course a part of our belief in the Union in the House that so many hon. and right hon. Members who are not Ulster Members take a close interest in the affairs of Northern Ireland. I therefore consider it reasonable that that composition should pertain.

The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) asked whether, in a letter that I wrote on 27 February, I was saying that we intended to pass all Northern Ireland

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legislation through the Grand Committee. Certainly not. He will see that in that letter I said that it should also be possible on a Government motion for draft Northern Ireland orders and Orders in Council to be referred to the Grand Committee. It is simply to enhance that as a possibility that we make this proposal.

In the time available, I cannot sensibly do anything much more than to say this about an important point in conclusion. It has been said--with sincerity, I am sure--that the proposal is bad because it will take away some of the drive for that comprehensive settlement which it is the object of the talks process to help the people of Northern Ireland secure.

I see no case for that whatever. Here is something that mitigates one of the worst consequences of direct rule--what we call the democratic deficit. It is entirely without prejudice to what we are seeking to do in that talks process. The Grand Committee will not have legislative capacity; in all probability, it will be used primarily for non-controversial Bills. It will have no power to amend. It is completely different from what we are seeking to achieve in this context in the talks process.

I very much hope that, after an interesting debate, we can proceed, and that the motion will be carried. I commend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That--

(1) Standing Order No. 99 (Northern Ireland Grand Committee) shall be repealed and Standing Orders No. 99A to 99H below shall have effect;
(2) Standing Order No. 87 (Attendance of law officers and ministers in standing committees) shall be amended, in line 9, by inserting 'or a motion in the Northern Ireland Grand Committee under Standing Order No. 99A (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (composition and business))' after the words relating to the Welsh Grand Committee which were inserted on 11th March 1996;
(3) Standing Order No. 101 (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation) shall be amended, in line 21, at the end, by inserting 'or to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee'; and
(4) Other Standing Orders shall have effect subject to the foregoing provisions of this Order.
99 A. Northern Ireland Grand Committee (composition and business)
(1) There shall be a standing committee called the Northern Ireland Grand Committee, which shall consist of all Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland, together with not more than twenty-five other Members nominated by the Committee of Selection, which shall have power from time to time to discharge the Members so nominated by it and to appoint others in substitution for those discharged.
(2) The quorum of the committee shall be ten, subject to paragraph (5) of Standing Order No. 99 H (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (sittings)).
(3) the business of the committee shall include--
(a) questions tabled in accordance with Standing Order No. 99 B (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (questions for oral answer));
(b) short debates held in accordance with Standing Order No. 99 C (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (short debates));
(c) ministerial statements proceeded with under Standing Order No. 99 D (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (ministerial statements));

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(b) The Member who gave notice of the subject and the Minister of the Crown replying to the debate may each speak for five minutes. Other Members may speak for three minutes.
(c) The chairman may direct any Member who exceeds the limits in sub-paragraph (b) to resume his seat forthwith.
(6) Notice of subjects under this order may be given ten sitting days before that on which they are sought to be raised:
Provided that when it is proposed that the House shall adjourn for a period of fewer than four days, any day during that period (other than a Saturday or a Sunday) shall be counted as a sitting day for the purposes of the calculation made under this paragraph.
99 D. Northern Ireland Grand Committee (ministerial statements).
(1) The chairman of the Northern Ireland Grand Committee may permit a Minister of the Crown, whether or not a Member of the House, to make a statement, of which prior notice has been given to him, on a matter relating to Northern Ireland, and to answer questions thereon put by members of the committee.
(2) Ministerial statements may be made--
(a) at the commencement of a sitting; or
(b) if questions are taken, immediately after the conclusion of proceedings thereon; or
(c) if short debates are held, immediately after the conclusion of those proceedings.
(3) Proceedings under this order shall be brought to a conclusion at the discretion of the chairman.
(4) A Minister of the Crown making a statement under paragraph (1) of this order, who is not a Member of the House, may not do so from the body of the committee; and shall not vote, make any motion or be counted in the quorum.
99 E. Northern Ireland Grand Committee (bills in relation to their principle)
(1) On the order being read for the second reading of a public bill relating exclusively to Northern Ireland, a motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown (or in the case of a private Member's bill, by the Member in charge of the bill), 'That the bill be referred to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee', and the question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed:
Provided that such a motion may be made by a private Member only with the leave of the House.
(2) A bill so referred to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee shall be considered on a motion, 'That the Committee has considered the bill in relation to its principle', and, when the committee has considered that question for a total of two and a half hours (whether on one or more than one day), the chairman shall put the question necessary to dispose of the motion, and shall then report accordingly to the House (or shall report that the committee has come to no resolution), without any further question being put thereon:
Provided that a Minister of the Crown may, immediately before the motion 'That the Committee has considered the bill in relation to its principle' is made, make without notice a motion to extend the time-limit specified in this paragraph; and the question on such motion shall be put forthwith.
(3) A bill in respect of which a report has been made under paragraph (2) above shall be ordered to be read a second time on a future day.
(4) When a motion shall have been made for the second reading of a bill to which paragraph (3) above applies, the question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed.
(5) At the conclusion of proceedings on consideration on report of a bill in respect of which a report has been made under paragraph (2) above, or on the order being read for the third reading of such a bill, a motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown (or in the case of a private Member's bill by the Member in charge of the

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bill), 'That the Bill be referred again to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee', and the question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed:
Provided that such a motion may be made by a private Member only with the leave of the House.
(6) A bill so referred again to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee shall be considered on a motion, 'That the Committee has further considered the bill in relation to its principle', and, when the committee has considered that question for a total of one and a half hours (whether on one or more than one day), the chairman shall put the question necessary to dispose of the motion, and shall then report accordingly to the House (or shall report that the committee has come to no resolution), without any further question being put thereon:
Provided that a Minister of the Crown may, immediately before the motion 'That the Committee has further considered the bill in relation to its principle' is made, make without notice a motion to extend the time-limit specified in this paragraph; and the question on such motion shall be put forthwith.
(7) A bill in respect of which a report has been made under paragraph (6) above shall be ordered to be read the third time on a future day.
(8) When a motion shall have been made for the third reading of a bill to which paragraph (7) above applies, the question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed.
99 F. Northern Ireland Grand Committee (legislative proposals and other matters relating exclusively to Northern Ireland)
(1) A motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of public business to the effect that a legislative proposal or other specified matter relating exclusively to Northern Ireland be referred to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee for its consideration, and the question thereon shall be put forthwith.
(2) If such a motion be agreed to, the committee shall consider the legislative proposal or matter referred to it and shall report only that it has considered the said legislative proposal or matter.
(3) In this order and in Standing Orders No. 99 A (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (composition and business)) and No. 99 H (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (sittings)) 'a legislative proposal' means a proposal for a draft Order in Council relating exclusively to Northern Ireland.
99 G. Northern Ireland Grand Committee (delegated legislation)
(1) Where--
(a) a Member has given notice of a motion for a humble address to Her Majesty praying that a statutory instrument be annulled, or of a motion of a similar character relating to a statutory instrument or to any other instrument (whether or not in draft) which may be subject to proceedings in the House in pursuance of a statute, or of a motion that the House takes note of a statutory instrument, or
(b) a Minister of the Crown has given notice of a motion to the effect that an instrument (whether or not in draft) upon which proceedings may be taken in pursuance of an Act of Parliament (other than a draft deregulation order) be approved,
a motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown, 'That the instrument be referred to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee'; and the question on such motion shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed.
(2) The Committee shall consider each instrument referred to it on a motion, 'That the Committee has considered the instrument'; and the chairman shall put any question necessary to dispose of the

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proceedings on the motion, if not previously disposed of, not later than two and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings thereon; and shall thereupon report the instrument to the House without any further question being put:
Provided that a Minister of the Crown may, immediately before the motion 'That the Committee has considered the instrument' is made, make without notice a motion to extend to three hours the time-limit specified in this paragraph; and the question on such motion shall be put forthwith.
(3) If any motion is made in the House of the kind specified in paragraph 1(a) or 1(b) of this order, in relation to any instrument in respect of which a report has been made to the House in accordance with paragraph (2) of this order, the Speaker shall put forthwith the question thereon; which may be decided at any hour, though opposed.
99 H. Northern Ireland Grand Committee (sittings)
(1) A motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown providing (or varying previous provision) for the Northern Ireland Grand Committee--
(a) to sit on not more than two specified days in Northern Ireland (at places to be named by the Member appointed chairman), the sitting commencing, and proceedings being interrupted, at such hours as shall be specified;
(b) to sit on other specified days at Westminster at such hours as shall be specified;
(c) to take questions under Standing Order No. 99 B (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (questions for oral answer)) on certain of the days specified under paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) above;
(d) to hold short debates under Standing Order No. 99 C (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (short debates)) on certain of the days so specified;
(e) to consider specified bills which shall have been referred to it under Standing Order No. 99 E (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (bills in relation to their principle)) on certain of the days so specified;
(f) to consider legislative proposals and other specified matters which shall have been referred to it under Standing Order No. 99 F (Northern Ireland Grand

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Committee (legislative proposals and other matters relating exclusively to Northern Ireland)) on certain of the days so specified;
(g) to consider specified instruments (whether or not in draft) which shall have been referred to it under Standing Order No. 99 G (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (delegated legislation)) on certain of the days so specified; and
(h) to consider motions for the adjournment of the committee made under paragraph (5) below on certain of the days so specified;
and the Speaker shall put forthwith the question on such a motion, which may be decided at any hour, though opposed:
Provided that nothing in this order shall prevent the committee from considering further at a sitting at Westminster business adjourned at a previous sitting in Northern Ireland, nor from considering at a sitting in Northern Ireland business adjourned at a sitting at Westminster.
(2) The provisions of Standing Order No. 88 (Meetings of standing committees), so far as they relate to the naming of a day in respect of business by the Member appointed chairman and the committee's appointment of future days in respect of business not completed at a sitting, shall not apply to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee.
(3) The chairman shall interrupt proceedings (other than on a motion made under paragraph (5) below) at the time specified in relation to the sitting by an order made under paragraph (1) above or, in the absence of such provision, at one o'clock, subject to paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 88 (Meetings of standing committees).
(4) At the moment of interruption, proceedings under consideration and not disposed of shall stand adjourned.
(5) On a day specified in an order made under paragraph (1) above, after the interruption of proceedings, or on the completion of the business appointed for consideration at that sitting, whichever is the earlier, a motion for the adjournment of the committee may be made by a Minister of the Crown, and, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 88 (Meetings of standing committees) the chairman shall, not later than half an hour after the motion has been made, adjourn the committee without putting any question; and in respect of business taken under this paragraph, the quorum of the committee shall be three.

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