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Mr. Bernard Jenkin: That is Michael Forsyth's position.
Sir Patrick Cormack: Indeed, that is Michael Forsyth's position. Sadly he is not here to argue it--would that he were.
I am aware that there are other hon. Members who wish to take part in the debate. That being so, I shall conclude my remarks by reiterating what I consider to be the most important point that I have sought to make this afternoon,
which is that the Government are treating the House with disdain approaching contempt. If they continue so to do, they will be sowing the seeds of their own destruction.
Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills):
I am glad that I was returned to this place in the recent general election, if only because I have heard for the first time--I knew that it would happen--a Conservative Front Bench spokesman speak against the guillotine. I have lived within these premises for nearly 18 years, and I have watched the Conservative Front Bench turn the guillotine into a constitutional device for destroying debate and the free expression of the people of this country.
We reached the position where we devised even more ways in which we could screw down public debate. We anticipated even Second Readings by insisting on a guillotine before they took place. We guillotined a new constitutional innovation. We guillotined Lords amendments before they had even come before us. That was the effect of our guillotine legislation. To hear my Front-Bench colleagues say that the guillotine is inappropriate cheers me and a wider circle of people who believe in Conservative trust, worthwhile government and honest principle.
As I said that, the then Opposition Members rose, as indignantly as I have heard Opposition Members today, to oppose every measure that came before us, including what became the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and the anticipatory legislation that was introduced before the 1992 general election. Legislation was taken on a shovel. That is what we reduced the House to.
The danger of that approach is that it creates cynicism. By moving from one side of the Chamber to the other, we have the same rubbish thrown back at us. Let us not be in any doubt that the Bill is a major constitutional issue. It is inappropriate to introduce a guillotine because the Bill touches on the most delicate and important of all flowers in this nation of ours--and that is our Union. We have the absurd position of the Scottish National party, which, on the one hand, wants full integration with the union of Europe, but, on the other, wishes to smash the only Union that is of importance to many many of us.
What do I mean by "many many of us"? The 1991 census told us that 680,000 or 690,000 Scots-born people over the age of 18 were living in England. Similarly, about 500,000 Welsh-born people are living in England. Are they to be casually disfranchised? It is difficult to express the passion that brings together nearly 290 years, as it will be this year, of consanguinity and common language.
If we hear rage and concern, it is because there is extremely deep concern that in the turning of this particular key and the opening of this door we walk through to something that is of profound importance and will be to the disadvantage of the Union.
Mr. Dalyell:
As the hon. Gentleman knows, many of us on the opposite side of the Chamber have respected him greatly in these debates. But what rights does he think that the Scots in Aldridge-Brownhills have to participate in the proposed referendum? I should be extremely interested in his answer.
Mr. Shepherd:
I was trying to explain, and I am sorry that I did not inform the House well enough. I am saying that we, each one of us, as part of a Union have a right to express our view on the nature and shape of that Union.
I wanted to move on to the second proposition. If we are to nationalise parts of the Union and bring back the feeling of Scottishness, Welshness and Englishness, how can we leave out of the equation, in the great affirmation of Scotland, the reason why I, who was born in Scotland, should be denied a vote on the future of the country for which I have sentiment and feeling, and which I believe should be part of an integral United Kingdom?
Mr. Salmond:
The hon. Gentleman may remember that a few years ago members of the Politburo in the old Soviet Union believed that referendums such as those in the Baltic states should have been conducted across the whole of the Soviet Union. Did the hon. Gentleman support that view at that time?
Mr. Shepherd:
I have not often come into contact with the honourable leader of the Scottish National party, but it is absurd if Scotland is reduced to such trivia when dealing with these important matters. I am talking about consanguinity: no one has suggested that the Soviet Union was an area of consanguinity. We have been united by marriage and blood over several centuries.
Mr. Wallace:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Shepherd:
No, I want to explain why I want to attack the guillotine motion.
Mr. Salmond:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Shepherd:
No, I said no. The hon. Gentleman has spoken. I want to explain why I oppose this measure.
Almost half a million Welsh men and women live in England. Very few hon. Members could not trace a line to some part of the United Kingdom, which gives us a locus in equality on this matter. But that has been cast aside and we shall not even be able to discuss these issues.
I want to refer to the reputations of Governments. There were three guillotine motions during the Attlee Government and another three up to 1971, while in the 1980s under Mrs. Thatcher there were almost 60. Until circumstances reduced him, my right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) instituted the course that was taken by the previous Government, to which I referred in my opening remarks. Such practice slowly
changes the nation's mind. People perceive Governments as arrogant or not sensitive enough to the basic political questions of the age. The Labour party is the great beneficiary of that.
The Government should not knock the genuinely expressed anxieties about the future of the Union. The simplicity of some of our amendments may not be to the satisfaction of some hon. Members, and they may have been excluded by the Chairman of Ways and Means, but they are not criticisms of substance; they are anxieties that have been raised. The House should be able to discuss familiar and important matters: that is the purpose of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. We should consider the sensitivities and difficulties of English representatives who are trying to ensure that the referendum consolidates and does not break the Union. Many hon. Members want to preserve the Union. If that is the Government's ambition, I share it.
My fear is that we will not have sufficient time to reflect on people's niggles and anxieties. My mother lived in this country for 50 years. The Scottish nationalists may ask, "What does she know about Scotland?" It is a fact that, because of our language, we are informed about each area of the Union.
Mr. Thomas Graham (West Renfrewshire):
I have listened to the debate, and I am astounded and stunned by the thoughts expressed by Conservative Members. We have had 18 years of Tory rule, and we have fought the general election. I have been in the House for 10 years, and I can safely say that during that time hardly a week or a month went by without the people of Scotland saying, "When will we get rid of the Tories? When will we have a Scottish Parliament of our own? When will our destinies be in our own hands?" The Tories have not learnt that lesson, and they have been wiped out in Scotland.
I have great respect for the hon. Members for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) and for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack): they are men of integrity and have made many speeches in the House. I do not like the guillotine any more than they do. However, the people of Scotland are sick and tired of waiting. They have been waiting for a devolved Parliament for more than 20 years. They are desperate, and they think that there has been enough talk. They want to see the establishment of that Parliament in Scotland; they want to participate and they want the services that a Scottish Parliament will decide on and deliver. It is not for us to continue the never ending story. If we talk, talk, talk, the people of Scotland will go for another 50 years without a proper Parliament.
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