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Mr. Duncan Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Graham: I will let the hon. Gentleman intervene in a minute.
Do hon. Members seriously think that the people of Scotland are half daft, and that we are still living in the days of the Picts and go about painted? We are not. We are educated people, and we can see quite clearly when the Opposition are out to wreck a measure for which the people of Scotland have spoken. There is not one Labour Member who did not put into his election address that he wanted a Scottish Parliament. We did not kid anyone in Scotland: we told them clearly that we want a Scottish Parliament.
We also came up with a referendum. The Labour party argued about whether it was for or against a referendum: yes, yes, no, yes, no. The Tories had a meeting in Scotland in a big tent. They had a pow-wow in a wigwam, but they could not smoke the peace pipe because they had broken it. They do not have a clue. They still do not understand that in a democracy we must listen to the people. The people of Scotland have put their cross on the ballot paper: they want a Labour Government and they want the House to deliver a Scottish Parliament.
Mr. Duncan Smith:
Surely the point is that the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends stood in the general election on their belief in devolution. Does he not agree that the problem is that we are putting the cart before the horse? If the Government put the devolution argument and then asked the people of Scotland to decide, we would not have this problem. The question could be put through the House quickly and then the people of Scotland could be asked. Why not have it that way?
Mr. Graham:
The hon. Gentleman would make a fortune in the Glasgow Playhouse. That was comedy at its worst. The people of Scotland have said clearly that they want a Parliament. If the hon. Gentleman wants to intervene again, I will be happy to listen to him.
Mr. Duncan Smith:
My point is that the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends stood on a platform of devolution and a Scottish Parliament. Why do the Government not debate the devolution legislation on the Floor of the House? With their majority, it would no doubt be passed. They could then ask the people of Scotland whether that is what they want.
Mr. Graham:
How long has the hon. Gentleman been in the House? I have been here 10 years. The Tory Government never listened to us. We asked them to come up with a devolved Parliament and an Assembly: we pleaded with them, and we tried to do deals to ensure that it would happen. So did the Scottish National party, which has wanted their question on independence. I would not deny them. When the Tories had the opportunity, they did nothing for the people of Scotland.
The people of Scotland have done the business, so the House should also do the business. We have binned the Tories, and the only way back for them is to start listening
to the people of Scotland and to take steps to come into line and ensure that we have a meaningful Scottish Parliament.
I am sitting here listening tonight, but Conservative Members do not listen to the message that is coming from Tories in Scotland. They are dumb, and when they are dumb they cannot think. Certainly, they are not speaking on behalf of Scottish Tories. They have given that up. The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills has integrity; if we do not have such integrity in Scotland, the United Kingdom will be split asunder. The Tories should not run away from the argument. They should say that, if the people of Scotland want a Parliament, we should all work together to deliver the goods.
Mr. Richard Shepherd:
May I make a simple point? We are expressing outrage about a guillotine motion. I think that we all want to engage in the subsequent development of the argument; it is the guillotine on discussion that we oppose. I accept the hon. Gentleman's point that there may be a settled will in Scotland.
Mr. Graham:
I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from and I understand where some other Opposition Members are coming from, but I know that the rest, deep down, want a mechanism to stop the process in its tracks because their view about Scottish devolution is so deeply entrenched. I have read some of the nonsense that has come from those who used to be Ministers.
Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks):
I regret the terms of the motion, but I deplore even more the arguments that have been assembled in favour of it.
First, we were told that this was somehow not a constitutional Bill. My right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr. Maude) blew that argument right out of the water. The Prime Minister thought that this was a constitutional Bill. Replying to me earlier, the Secretary of State described it as a small technical measure; yet on Second Reading his own Minister of State said that these were "not technical measures", and that after the referendum the Government would act in accordance with the results. I urge Government Front Benchers, if they want to retain any credibility in the matter, to say once and for all today whether or not this is a constitutional measure.
Secondly, the Government tried to justify the guillotine motion in a way in which I have never heard any timetable motion justified, speaking of the need to eliminate amendments that were either frivolous or esoteric. My amendment No. 121, which will be eliminated by the timetable motion, proposes arrangements for service men serving overseas to vote in the referendum. The amendment is not phrased in my own words, but precisely reflects the wording of an amendment making special arrangements for service men that the then Labour Government tabled to the last referendum Bill back in
1975. There are many Scottish service men serving in Scottish regiments overseas who will not be able to vote in the referendum because my amendment will now not even be debated, let alone voted on.
The suggestion that the timetable motion is needed to eliminate amendments that are frivolous or esoteric goes further: it usurps the function of the Chairman of Ways and Means and the Clerks who advise him. The whole point of selecting amendments is that those that they regard as frivolous are not selected for debate. Furthermore, the timetable motion itself is unnecessary, because of the selection that the Chairman has made. Because of the way in which he has grouped amendments--in large groups, by large subjects--it would have been perfectly possible for the Government to secure their business by, if necessary, moving closure motions after two or three hours of debate on each group.
Finally, the Government have argued that there is a need for speed, not because of some legislative log jam, not because this is the last Session of a Parliament, not because of any special legislative requirements in terms of Scottish legislation--oh no. In the heat of the moment, the Leader of the House gave the game away last night, justifying the need for speed in the following terms:
Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex):
I follow what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon) by asking, why the rush? When we wonder why the Government will not answer that question, we need to consider what is the source of the referendum in the first place. All those Members on the Government side now arguing in favour of a referendum originally never had the idea of a referendum in their heads. The referendum policy was thought up to serve as a sticking plaster to cover the splits in the Labour party over devolution, which were emerging when it was still in opposition.
What we want now is a referendum--that is the Opposition's policy, if these proposals are to be put to the Scottish people--but after the legislation has been passed. We want a referendum that will really establish what is the settled will of the Scottish people. The Government want this rush because the last thing that they want the Scottish people to do is seriously to consider the content and meaning of the referendum proposals. Let me tell the hon. Member for West Renfrewshire (Mr. Graham) that that is what happened last time: they thought about it. The hon. Gentleman was elected on a mandate for a referendum, not a mandate for a Scottish Parliament. Whatever he personally may believe, there is no mandate for a Scottish Parliament--only a mandate for a referendum.
"If we did not take steps to ensure that there was a referendum in Scotland and one in Wales in the autumn we would be breaking a manifesto commitment."--[Official Report, 2 June 1997; Vol. 295, c. 132.]
That is the start of a slide towards an elective dictatorship, putting the doctrine of the mandate ahead of the authority of the House. We should reject the motion today, and we should reject even more firmly the arguments advanced to sustain it.
6.5 pm
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