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The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ron Davies): Despite the last comments of the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, I am sure that there is a general understanding in the House that the Government are proceeding in the correct way. [Interruption.] I think that there is. I thank the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) for the support that the Liberal Democrats have given to the Government on this matter, and the Scottish National party for its somewhat qualified support for the proposition. I also know that the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), who represents Plaid Cymru, is well disposed to the motion.
It is a sad reflection on the state of the Conservative party that it has learned nothing in the past month. It was comprehensively defeated at the general election a month ago and was wiped out in Scotland and Wales. All it is doing is resolutely refusing to recognise that, on the central issue of the way in which Scotland and Wales are governed, it was wrong and is wrong. The Conservative party resolutely clings to the status quo when that status quo is totally discredited.
I remind the shadow Secretary of State of the time when he was Secretary of State for Wales. There are powerful currents running towards democratic government in both Scotland and Wales. The people of Scotland and Wales want to give expression to their national aspirations and to decide their own local priorities in public services. People in Scotland and Wales, and no doubt in the regions of England, wish to find out how best they can develop their own regional economies.
I remind the shadow Secretary of State that there are some Conservatives, certainly some in Wales--the more progressive of them--who do understand the need to modernise our constitution. Let me draw his attention to the remarks of his colleague, the former right hon. Member for Conwy, Sir Wyn Roberts. I take this opportunity to pay my personal tribute to him. He was a witty, dedicated and patriotic Welshman who served his constituency with great distinction. He is the longest-serving Welsh Office Minister we have ever had and, within weeks of leaving that office and leaving government, he recognised that it was time, and that there was a need, to rethink policy on devolution.
That brings me to Sir Wyn's successor, my hon. Friend the Member for Conwy (Mrs. Williams), whom I particularly welcome. She treated us to a marvellous maiden speech. It was passionate and articulate. I know of her love for her new constituency and share her admiration for the beauty of her part of Wales. She spoke eloquently of her native language and our shared culture, and I welcome her determination to democratise our government in Wales. She will be a staunch ally in the referendum campaign that will shortly come.
I agree with the shadow Secretary of State that there need not necessarily have been a guillotine motion before the House this evening. The Bill that is the subject of the guillotine is, of course, a short Bill. It contains six straightforward clauses and two schedules, but, somehow or other, within the space of a few days, that short Bill has attracted 250 amendments, 21 new clauses and 12 new schedules.
Those amendments, new clauses and new schedules were designed not to improve the Bill, but to wreck any chances of an orderly and considered debate. I think that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland was absolutely right when he accused Opposition Members of overkill. Let me refer the House to new clause 8, which I am sure was not tabled to improve debate. It says:
Mr. Cash:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Davies:
I am sorry, but time does not allow.
I must ask the House what the Government are supposed to do under those circumstances. The Government are doing precisely what the shadow Secretary of State for Wales and his party would do were they still in government. The choice is quite simple and there should be no misunderstanding. Either the Government would have had to allow a completely uncontrolled filibuster, which would have implications for not only this piece of legislation but all the Government's legislative programme, or they had to act now to ensure a proper timetable for a rational debate and time for all the key issues to be debated.
Mr. Davies:
I listened patiently to both the hon. Members and I want to reply to some of the important points that have been made.
Mr. Jenkin:
There is never enough time, is there?
Mr. Davies:
No, unfortunately there is not, but we do have a guillotine motion before us.
The Opposition know that their indignation on this matter is entirely synthetic. I shall remind them of the views of Michael Portillo when he was speaking from the Dispatch Box:
Mr. Davies:
Of course the debate will be brief. The Government accept that the alternative is to allow the Conservative party to reduce the proceedings in the House to a degenerate rabble. That is the Conservative party's intention, but the Government will not allow that to happen.
There will be a further opportunity for a debate on the second Scottish question. I understand the position of many of those in the Scottish Liberal Democrat party and the Scottish National party who do not share the Government's view that there should be a second question dealing with tax-raising powers. When the timetable motion is accepted, there will be an opportunity for that debate, so that hon. Members can put their case and a Division can take place.
If and when--[Interruption.] The issue of thresholds has been raised from a sedentary position. That issue has been raised in various amendments and Madam Speaker has been responsible for the selection. If the debates on the franchise are brief and the House reaches an early conclusion, there will be an opportunity for a further debate on those matters. It is entirely in the hands
of Opposition Members. If they wish to use the time available to debate the franchise at length, there will not be time for a debate on thresholds.
Sir Patrick Cormack:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Davies:
I have only a few minutes left and I must finish this point.
The Government's view is clear. We believe that there is no room in the referendum for the artificial introduction of the sort of thresholds that have been mentioned.
Mr. Hague:
The right hon. Gentleman said that there will be plenty of time to debate the franchise and the second Scottish question and that there will also be time to debate lots of other things. He cannot hold both those views simultaneously. The guillotine means that there cannot be a debate on the procedures of the referendum, on the arguments about thresholds or on whether the people of Wales should be asked about tax-raising powers. Does he think that that is right?
Mr. Davies:
The right hon. Gentleman is wrong. The amendment tabled by Plaid Cymru will allow for a referendum with a range of options. It will provide the multi-choice option. If that amendment is successful, that multi-choice option will be put before the people of Wales. It will presumably include the sort of Parliament that they wish to see, with a range of legislative powers and, presumably, with tax-raising powers. It is precisely so that we can move to a rational debate on those issues that the Government have tabled the timetable motion.
The motion will allow four main debates. There will be one on the franchise, one on the second Scottish question, one on the multi-choice option for Wales and one on the multi-choice option for Scotland.
I want to reply to the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack), which is why I did not give way to him. He suggested that there was a choice and that, had there been an offer from the Opposition's business managers, the Government should have accepted it, to ensure that there was no need for a guillotine. The Government would have co-operated with the Opposition if there had been a reasonable prospect of coming to an agreement. It was made clear by the Conservative party's representatives that no guarantees could be given.
The Government have been quite reasonable in allowing two days on the Floor of the House for a debate in Committee on this brief Bill. If the Opposition are not prepared to guarantee that the business will be concluded within those two days, the Government have no option but to proceed with the motion.
The Government have to accept their responsibility to the House of Commons to ensure an orderly debate. During its time in office from 1979, the Conservative party introduced 61 guillotines. There are many precedents for this pre-Committee stage guillotine. This is the first big test of the Conservative party in opposition and it has failed. It has failed to come to terms with its election defeat and failed to understand the consequences of being wiped out in Scotland and Wales.
"Nothing in this Act shall derogate from--
Is the shadow Secretary of State for Wales or the shadow Home Secretary telling us that that new clause is tabled to bring about an orderly, logical and rational debate on the proposition before us? I do not believe that it is.
(a) the Union with Scotland Act 1706, The Union with Scotland (Amendment) Act 1707, The Succession to the Crown Act 1707, The Princess Sophia's Precedence Act 1711 or The Demise of the Crown Acts 1702 to 1901 or any Act of Parliament affecting the Crown;
(b) The Wales Act 1535;
(c) The Act of Settlement 1700."
"It is known in the House that the reality is a choice between many hours in Committee characterised by filibuster and slow progress, and a number of hours in Committee in which we make reasonable progress."--[Official Report, 12 November 1991; Vol. 198, c. 1046.]
The timetable motion will allow the House to have an ordered, rational and sensible debate. It will provide for four key debates. I know that many hon. Members have raised the issue of the franchise. When the timetable motion is accepted, there will be an opportunity for a calm, rational and brief debate on the franchise.
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