| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Richard Livsey (Brecon and Radnorshire): Is not it even more extraordinary that the Government are not even prepared to consider such options for Wales?
Mr. Wallace: I know that my hon. Friend is concerned about the absence of tax-varying powers from the Welsh proposals. I am sure that some of my Welsh colleagues will wish to make that point.
I want to make it clear that if we were to lose the amendment in a vote tonight, my party would enthusiastically support the campaign for a yes, yes outcome. We want a Scottish Parliament. That has been Liberal policy for the best part of a century and we want it delivered. There is a real expectation in Scotland that, this time, it will be delivered.
I ask the Minister to consider, even at this late stage, the merits of consolidating the two questions. In many respects, that would honour the commitment that the Labour party made in its manifesto, as it would be a question on the Scottish Parliament itself, with the clear highlighting of the fact that that Parliament would have tax-raising powers. By consolidating the questions, we would not run the risk of causing some of the problems that I mentioned.
One reason for the opposition in Scotland to a referendum when the Labour party announced its proposal last June was that people identified it in their minds with
the 1978-79 wrecking tactic, especially the 40 per cent. rule. I do not believe that the Government want to wreck the process. It is clear from what has been said and from the passion with which the Secretary of State put the case this afternoon that that is far from the Government's intention. However, as those who know the history of home rule in Scotland are well aware, there has been many a slip in thinking that a full-blooded Scottish Parliament is in our grasp and then letting it slip away through some fault of our own. We do not want that to happen now.
We believe that by asking the single question that we have proposed, all concerns can be embraced. I have every confidence that we would get an overwhelming yes vote, and then we could get on with the real business of creating Scottish and Welsh Parliaments for the next millennium.
Mr. Ancram:
I want to deal with some of the amendments grouped with amendment No. 87, and thereby broaden our debate.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) on his courage. After four weeks of total adulation of the Labour Government, he has at last been brave enough to be mildly critical of their proposals. We hope that it is the forerunner of many other occasions when the new Liberal Democrat party will behave more as a part of the Opposition than as an adjunct to the Government.
The aim of the amendment is to consolidate the proposed two questions into a single question on a single ballot paper. Although I cannot support the wording, which would create something inimical to the Opposition's views, it may avoid certain distortions and anomalies that could arise from having two papers. I understand that some people--I hope that I do not do the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) an injustice in including him--take the view that they might say no to a Scottish Parliament, but that if there were to be one anyway they would wish it to have tax-raising powers. Under the Bill, there could be a no vote on the first question of a simple Scottish Parliament and a yes vote to one with tax-raising powers. If that is a broad response, it could produce the most extraordinarily distorted result. I hope that the Government will consider that point carefully. If they are trying to assess the opinion of the Scottish and, indeed, the Welsh through a referendum, the last thing they want is a result that makes no sense.
I want to broaden the debate because it goes to the heart of one of our objections to the way in which the Bill is framed and is being taken through the House. The Bill attempts to lull the electorates in Scotland and Wales by asking the questions that Ministers think will be the least likely to create fear in the hearts of those electorates and, therefore, the least likely to be rejected.
The question that is currently proposed is anodyne. It states:
The second question states:
Sir Robert Smith:
I wonder what the hon. Gentleman thinks would happen to his party's fortunes in an election to a Scottish Parliament. I have contested local elections in which the Conservative candidate has stood on a platform of cutting expenditure and tax. Does he not believe that, in elections to a Scottish Parliament, the people of Scotland might vote for Conservative candidates who stand on such a platform?
Mr. Ancram:
If that hypothesis were correct, a very interesting question would arise. As we know, Scotland is financed by a formula block, which is provided by the UK Parliament and Government. If there were to be a tax reduction, we would need to know, before a referendum, whether it would be paid for by the English taxpayer through taxation that is paid into the Scottish block, or deducted from the Scottish block, with a consequent reduction in services for people in Scotland. I do not know the answer to that question, because I am not making the proposals. If there is to be a genuine and valid referendum in which people can make a judgment, that is precisely the type of question that will have to be answered.
Mr. Fallon:
Has it occurred to my right hon. Friend that the Government do not know the answer to that question? This is the first referendum Bill that does not
A referendum is being proposed on questions that are so anodyne and so ambiguous that the people of Scotland will not be able to make a valid judgment. They will not, therefore, be able to provide an answer on which we can proceed with confidence.
There are a vast number of unanswered questions, such as that asked by the hon. Member for Linlithgow about who will pay the tax because, presumably, the rate at which it is set will depend on who pays it? Will a higher tax in Scotland lead to an increase in overheads in Scotland and therefore a loss of competitiveness because people ask for higher wages to make up for the fact that they pay higher taxes? Will that be a disincentive to people working in Scotland? I come originally from the borders where it would not be difficult for people to move across into England to work if they thought they would pay lower taxes. That would greatly disadvantage those who live in the borders and the economy of the area.
We are asked to decide on the Bill and on the referendum but we do not know the details of the proposals. We are told that we shall see the White Paper before the House rises for the summer. We are told that we shall have a debate on it but not how long that debate will be or how detailed the White Paper will be.
The Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution said in the debate on the previous group of amendments that we would be able to consider the proposals in depth. If that is correct, and if the Minister is referring not only to the White Paper but to the proposals in the form of legislation, does it mean that we shall be able to have a debate on the Floor of the House? The Minister went on to say that such a debate would be the opportunity for people from all parts of the United Kingdom, through their elected representatives, to examine the proposals. Is he therefore saying that the proposals will not be sent to a Scottish Standing Committee but that Members from all parts of the United Kingdom will be able to participate in the Committee stage? We need to know the answers. It is not enough for the Minister of State to shake his head and say that he cannot provide those answers. If we are to allow the Bill to proceed, answers to such questions are germane to the decision that we must take.
We are debating whether taxes will go up or down, so we need to know what the Scottish Parliament is likely to be able to do. We need to know the answer to questions such as what will be the remuneration of members of the Scottish Parliament? How many staff will be required to run it, and what will be the costs involved? How will the Scottish Parliament be funded--out of the Scottish block or, more widely, from United Kingdom funds?
What effect will the Scottish Parliament have on the Scottish block grant? Will the Scottish Parliament have powers of spending over education, the national health service or agriculture in Scotland? What powers will it be able to exercise in relation to the police, transport and planning in Scotland? Whether taxes are likely to go up or down depends on the answers to those questions. If the people of Scotland are to make a reasonable judgment, they need to know the answers before they vote in a referendum.
"I agree that there should be a Scottish Parliament",
but does not even suggest whether a Scottish Parliament will be established as specified in a White Paper or in legislation. The prelude to the questions on the ballot paper, in schedule 1, mentions
"the Government's proposals for a Scottish Parliament",
but it does not state what those proposals will be or mention a Command Paper. The real questions are left hanging in the air. As I said in a previous speech, a question such as, "I agree that there should be a Scottish Parliament", would not even necessarily mean establishing a devolved Parliament within the United Kingdom, because it could mean establishing a Scottish Parliament within an independent Scotland.
"I agree that a Scottish Parliament should have tax-varying powers".
"Varying" is a wonderful word of comfort. In amendment No. 87, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland included the words "tax-raising", and he was right and honest to do so. Like all hon. Members, he knows that, if we establish a Scottish Parliament and provide it with all sorts of powers to do all sorts of things, it will be looking for the resources with which to do them. If we provide a Scottish Parliament with tax-raising powers, the almost inevitable consequence will be that those tax-raising powers will be used and that the Scottish people will consequently be financially disadvantaged.
"has gone very cool on devolution"?
Mr. Ancram:
That is a very interesting question, which we can include on the list of questions that we should like the Minister to answer. Given our experience to date, however, we are unlikely to receive answers to any of those questions. Nevertheless, I am grateful to my hon. Friend for asking his question.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |