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The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Michael J. Martin): Order. There is far too much noise in the Chamber.

Mr. Green: Society as a whole benefits from siblings going to the same school, because the number of car journeys at peak hours is reduced. If Labour Members do not take that point seriously, they should be careful to do so only from a sedentary position: otherwise, they will appear on Excalibur as being off message, and we know what effect that would have.

Mr. Clappison: My hon. Friend's point has an environmental complexion. Labour Members may care to note that major campaigns have been launched by the Department of the Environment from time to time to persuade parents not to use their cars for short journeys to take their children to school, because that is when car emissions are most environmentally damaging. That is an important point.

Mr. Green: I agree with my hon. Friend. I hope that Ministers who are enjoying their new cars are using them in the most environmentally friendly fashion.

Mr. Lansley: Many parents whose children go to schools such as my hon. Friend has described are working mothers or lone parents who have to accept responsibility for delivering children to, and collecting children from, school. Labour Members may not want to hear this argument. In the past, their contention has been that they

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wish to help lone parents into work, but this kind of measure could place additional burdens on parents who have to deliver children to different schools in different areas and prevent them from undertaking the work of their choice.

Mr. Green: That is an important point. We have heard much oratory from Labour Members about single mothers and how important it is that they should be allowed to work. One of the best ways to help single mothers, or working mothers of any kind, to get to work is to ensure that the journeys at each end of the school day are as simple and easy as possible, and the best way to do that is to ensure that in as many cases as possible all siblings go to the same school.

The Bill makes it more difficult for siblings to attend the same school, it will increase the journey time to schools and it will make it difficult for mothers to seek work, so making it more difficult to get them back into the labour force--an aim which Labour Members allegedly support.

Mr. Loughton: There is yet another important point in which the Government have no interest. Does my hon. Friend appreciate that up to a half of all journeys in Britain are shorter than five miles? On the A27 through my constituency, the largest cause of traffic congestion is parents taking their children to school. That problem will be compounded further if children have to be taken to different schools as siblings are split up by the sheer vindictiveness of this measure.

Mr. Green: I thank my hon. Friend for that excellent point.

When I was a state school governor, one of the basic tenets to which the school held in an attempt to improve the education of its children, like almost every school in Britain, was that priority should be given to siblings. Education is improved for individual children if sisters and brothers are allowed to go to the same school.

If that is good enough in the state sector, it should be good enough in the independent sector. The Government should be concerned with the education in all schools in Britain. They claim to be the Government for all, not just the few, so they should not impose discriminatory measures such as the Bill on children from relatively disadvantaged homes who benefit from the scheme. The Government will discriminate against those children by passing the Bill.

I appeal to the Minister and the Government to show some flexibility. Several of my right hon. and hon. Friends have made the point that the amendments would not wreck the central tenets of the Bill; they would simply improve it at the margin. That margin is extremely important, and I hope that the Government will take the argument seriously.

Conservative Members have tried to improve the Bill. Labour Members have sat here--not silently, but all their remarks have been made from a sedentary position--and contributed nothing to the debate. Many of them have returned to the Chamber from wherever they have been, but they have not advanced one argument all evening about how the central thrust of the Bill will improve

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education or, in particular, why the amendments we have been discussing for the past few hours are no good. Labour Members have not advanced one argument in favour of the Bill.

We have tried to improve the Bill for the Government by proposing the amendments. I appeal to the Minister to show some flexibility, to take the Bill away, to think again, to accept some of our amendments and to refuse to put through a measure that will damage the education of many thousands of children in my constituency and across the country.

Ms Estelle Morris: This is the first opportunity that I have had to speak in the Chamber, Mr. Martin, since your appointment as Deputy Speaker. I wish to congratulate you and to note that we always seem to start a parliamentary Session by serving together on an education Bill in our respective roles. Long may that continue.

I listened to the comments made by the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) when she moved the amendment. We heard crocodile tears from the hon. Lady, and I shall explain why later in my speech. If the issue of siblings being allowed to continue to take up assisted places is such a large issue--the most burning issue that we have discussed tonight--and if it provokes such tales of woe, as the hon. Lady suggested, I wonder why she and her colleagues marched into the Lobby some two hours ago to vote against the continuation of the debate. I am grateful that my hon. Friends allowed the debate to continue, so that we have had the opportunity to give a fair hearing to the issue.

Mrs. Gillan: I shall tell the Minister why we marched into the Lobby two hours ago against the 10 o'clock motion. We did so because it has been obvious from the behaviour of Labour Members during the debate that they are not interested in the details of the Bill. They are not interested in considering individual problems and they have arrogantly used their majority to railroad the Bill through the House. I wanted a more temperate debate on the Bill on another occasion, but the Government wanted to pass the Bill in a couple of hours. We went through the Lobby because we believe that the assisted places scheme is worth saving--the Government do not.

Ms Morris: As I said, we have seen many crocodile tears from Opposition Members. No one in the Committee--not Labour Members nor Conservative Members--has a monopoly of concern for children's welfare and well-being. The hon. Lady claimed that for herself and her hon. Friends, but that can never be the case. The Tories were the party that left the education system with £3 billion of school repairs outstanding, with half our 11-year-olds failing to reach the necessary levels of literacy and numeracy and with many of our four, five and six-year-olds in classes of more than 30. How dare the hon. Lady claim that she is concerned about children's education and welfare--[Interruption.]

The First Deputy Chairman: Order. We cannot have such behaviour in the Committee.

Mr. Luff: The Minister is out of order.

The First Deputy Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman should know better.

Ms Morris: I am concerned about Benjamin Brayley and the Mileses and Matthews--the individual cases that

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the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham mentioned and to which I listened carefully. Is that the worst thing that is likely to happen to those children? The hon. Lady thinks that it is such a terrible thing that they will be educated in the maintained sector. I have more faith in the state education system than Opposition Members.

12 midnight

Mr. Clappison: Will the Minister give way?

Ms Morris: No, I am going to make some progress.

The hon. Lady talked about a young man called Philip who was on an assisted places scheme and was about to get straight As in his GCSE examinations this year. I wish him well; I hope that he gets those straight As. But he will join thousands of others Philips and Philippas who will also get straight As and will take their place with him, doing A-levels and studying at the finest universities in the country. They will have received their education and their life chances from the state education system that the hon. Lady seems to consider such a terrible thing.

Several hon. Members rose--

The First Deputy Chairman: Order. The Minister is not giving way.

Ms Morris: I might give way later, if I am allowed to make some progress now.

Notwithstanding all the individual cases of which we have heard, all the names that have been bandied about by Opposition Members and all the letters from parents that have been read out, not once has any Opposition Member given the name of a child who is currently being educated in a class of more than 40 and is five years old. We have not been read a single letter from a parent who just wants the sort of teacher-pupil ratio that is enjoyed by many in the independent sector.


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