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Marjorie Mowlam: I am not trying to be obtuse; I am trying to be clear and helpful. The Prime Minister said after
Lurgan that there would be no contact. There has been no contact. Two telephone calls were made. We said no to both. That is the state of play. Could the hon. Gentleman explain what he means when he talks about relationships, because I am not clear and I want to be helpful?
Mr. Trimble: I used the term "have no relationships" merely because that was the phrase that was used by the Secretary of State. I am not clear what that phrase means either; that is why I spoke a little further on it. Does having no relationships mean having no contact and no communication--nothing? I am happy with that and I hope that that is the case. I see the Secretary of State giving me a thumbs-up. We shall interpret that as an affirmative response to my question.
Rev. Martin Smyth: There is a whisper going around in Northern Ireland that someone has initiated video conferencing. We appreciate the response from the Secretary of State, but, ultimately, she would be responsible. Is it possible that someone else in the security services is doing something?
Mr. Trimble: My hon. Friend refers to a real concern that has existed in Northern Ireland for a long time--that people not responsible to the Secretary of State are following an agenda of their own.
Mr. Trimble: If the Secretary of State is going to clarify that matter also, I will be glad to hear it.
Marjorie Mowlam: I should like to give further clarification to the hon. Gentleman. There has been no video cassette recorder contact between ourselves and Sinn Fein. The rumour may come from the time--to be absolutely straight with people--when we were trying, in the context of the marching season, to get different groups together that would not sit down and talk to each other. We suggested the VCR as one mechanism whereby people would not have to be in the same room but there could be direct communication with them so that there could be some discussion. I do not think that I have revealed any private discussions that we have had with the different groups in the Parades Commission, but I presume that that is where--as with so much in Northern Ireland--that rumour has sprung from.
Mr. Trimble: That does not entirely resolve the matter, because some of the groups to which the Secretary of State refers include individuals who we believe are part of Sinn Fein-IRA and, to a significant degree, those groups are subject to Sinn Fein-IRA's influence, but in any event there would be no concern in Northern Ireland about such matters if assurances that were given at the Dispatch Box were honoured; too often, they have not been. That is true not just of the previous Government or of other Governments; after the publication of the aide-memoire, clearly it is also true of this Government. There has not been the honesty that one would have hoped for.
Before that excursus, we were talking about the need for action to be taken to end this squalid, inadequate system of administration called direct rule and for the Grand Committee to be developed to give some
opportunity for Northern Ireland Members to discuss matters relating to Northern Ireland, including Northern Ireland legislation, and to hold the Government to account. We could also refer to the clear need to make progress where it can be made and where we know that it can be made successfully.
The Secretary of State referred to that in her opening speech: she mentioned the development of partnerships in local government and how the experience of giving local government additional powers has been positive. I note the comments made by Lord Dubs on the issue. Admittedly they are of a general nature, but I hope they show that there will be progress in relation to local government in Northern Ireland as soon as possible.
My next point relates to the inter-party talks and the point that was welcomed by the hon. Member for Hull, North. Last week's statement referred to a timetable for the talks. Of course we all hope that those talks will be able to proceed successfully and that, at their conclusion, we will have what the Prime Minister indicated: a devolved assembly in Northern Ireland with sensible arrangements for north-south dialogue. That would not cause problems to my party. We hope that such an assembly will be established and that those elements in the talks that want to prevent that from happening are not able to obstruct progress in the talks.
The timetable in itself is not a problem for us because, as the Secretary of State knows, under the legislation, the forum has only a two-year existence and will cease to exist by May next year. Of course, it has been a fixed position of the Unionist parties that, without a forum, there should be no negotiations, so, unless the legislation were changed, negotiations would never in any event have lasted beyond May next year. However, let us hope that the Government mean it when they say that there is going to be a timetable for the talks. As evidence that they do, are they prepared to commit themselves to a timetable for the ending of direct rule and to give a clear undertaking today that this will be the last time that direct rule is extended?
Mr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde):
I will be brief because I know that hon. Members from Northern Ireland wish to speak, and time is running on.
May I offer my sincere compliments to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland for her remarkable endeavours in a post that she has occupied for only two months? Despite the fact that he claimed that I was asleep earlier, I also offer my compliments to the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Bracknell (Mr. MacKay). He made a judicious speech and was right to call for the setting up of the Northern Ireland Grand Committee. I believe that I am right in saying that the Welsh Grand Committee met today and the Scottish Grand Committee will meet upstairs on 8 July.
I also agree with the hon. Member for Bracknell that more autonomy should be given to local authorities in Northern Ireland. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister
of State, Northern Ireland Office will recall that, last week, I said that, in their quest for a modus vivendi, the representatives of the Orange Order and of the Garvaghy Road residents association could do worse than to follow the remarkable example of Canon Sean Connolly, who has suspended Saturday evening masses in Harryville until, I believe, September. Whatever our religious affiliation, we all have readily to acknowledge that that was a remarkable and magnanimous gesture. Others should seek to emulate his public-spiritedness.
Mr. Maginnis:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Godman:
I said that I would be brief, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be very brief.
Mr. Maginnis:
Indeed. The great majority of people from the tradition to which I belong regarded what was happening at Harryville as an obscenity. We had no sympathy for the protests made outside the church. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we take no satisfaction from what happened; nor would we have encouraged anyone to cease holding services in Harryville at any time. I believe that part of the reason why the services were brought to an end is that attendance often falls in summer when people go on holiday. We would defend the right of people in Harryville to go to their church, and many of our party members have done so with their presence and support.
Mr. Godman:
I was about to thank the hon. Gentleman for a remarkably gracious intervention, but then he mentioned the falling off of attendance at services. I think that that could have been omitted from his otherwise fine intervention. Seriously, though, I am grateful for his comments.
I promised that I would be brief, and I have two questions to put to the Minister of State. First, have he and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State any plans to strengthen the powers of the Police Authority? Secondly, what initial responses have my right hon. Friend and her ministerial colleagues received concerning the proposed Northern Ireland Assembly? In addition to the opinions offered by the Northern Ireland political parties, has any interim observation been made by representatives of the new Government south of the border in the Irish Republic?
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