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New clause 6
'In section 55 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989, after subsection (3) there shall be inserted--
"(3A) Any criteria of housing need used in the allocation of supplementary credit approvals shall be the same in England as in Wales.".'.--[Mr. Evans.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this, it will be convenient to discuss new clause 8--Total amount of supplementary
credit approvals to be allocated between England and Wales according to relative share of funding for local government in those countries--
'The Secretary of State shall secure that the allocation of the total amount of supplementary credit approvals as between England and Wales accords with the formulae employed to determine the relative levels of funding of local authority revenue expenditure in England and Wales.'.
Mr. Evans: I have great pleasure in moving new clause 6. It has become quite apparent that, although Labour Members have waited 18 years to be in government, they have forgotten what it is to be the Government of the country. One of the great challenges and opportunities for a Government is to answer the questions that are posed. I am afraid that they have signally failed to do that since they took office.
I shall give the Minister an opportunity to answer at least two questions on the allocation of supplementary credit approvals, which many people living in Wales will be asking themselves concerning the Bill--although, as we saw, the Government were asked many questions on the issue of devolution, and not only did we not get any answers, but we seemed to get more questions.
I understand that there is a timetable for procedure involving SCAs, but Wales is seemingly being left in the dark about how much money it will receive. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) tabled a question on the issue. Even though I am going to ask the question again in this debate, I should say that the Treasury did not seem to know the answer earlier. We shall be listening for any further information from the Minister.
New clauses 6 and 8 will give the Minister the opportunity to tell the people of Wales specifically how much they will receive of the allocations of £200 million and £700 million. It will depend on what formula is used, how the money will be distributed and what criteria will be used. Will the Barnett formula be used to allocate the total budget?
We know that the Barnett formula was first used in 1978. It is an example of a non-statutory policy rule based on a mutual understanding between parties in a policy network, the implementation of which is subject to both sides observing the behavioural rules of the game. Thus, for example, if £1 billion is added to planned health service expenditure in England, £106.6 million would be added to the Scottish block and £60.2 million to the Welsh block.
The system offers three advantages to the territorial Departments. First, the operation of the formula protects to a large extent the existing situation, where spending per head is above the national average. Secondly, there is no need for the Departments to argue the case for equal treatment on each occasion that a relevant programme in England receives increased funding. Thirdly, the Secretary of State retains the freedom to allocate the block between programmes.
We might this evening be seeing the ending of the use of the Barnett formula. Perhaps it is an idea of the Government in order to distance themselves from Wales. Together with the devolution referendum, perhaps the Government are slowly but surely moving away from their commitment to Wales.
If the Barnett formula will not be used, what measures will be used? We already know that Wales is being downgraded by the Secretary of State for Wales and that he wants to see Wales marginalised in the United Kingdom, with his powers being transferred almost lock, stock and barrel to the turbo-charged county council, otherwise known as the Assembly, which will sit in Cardiff.
Once the allocation is known--I hope that we will be told this evening--how will its distribution in Wales be defined? Will we be told that the definition of housing need in Wales is exactly the same as that used elsewhere? As a Member of Parliament for an English constituency, I regret that we have so few Welsh Members in their places on the Government Benches today. They speak long and loudly about their commitment to Wales, but it is a shame that so few of them have sufficient commitment to be present when we are debating something of great importance to Wales.
I represent an English constituency, but my family live in Swansea and I have spent 17 of my 23 long years in politics in Welsh politics. As far as I am concerned, the definition of need should be the same whether in Wales or England. Local authorities need to know the definition of need that will be used and whether it will be the same. If it is not to be the same, what definition will be used? If a different needs formula will be used, will the Minister tell us why that is so?
Mr. Win Griffiths:
Has the hon. Gentleman read the Welsh consultation paper, because the answer is there?
Mr. Evans:
Yes, I have read the Welsh consultation paper, but I did not get the answers to my questions. I hope that we will not be fobbed off merely by advice to the people of Wales to refer to the Welsh consultation paper. The Minister has an opportunity to give us a clear figure for how much money Wales will get and what formula will be used. I know the definitions that have been used in the consultation paper, but I want to know whether they will be exactly the same as the definitions that will be used in England.
The people of Wales will be put in double jeopardy by the Government, as they sway from a tried and tested formula that has served Wales well for many years. Different needs criteria could cause tremendous problems. The only thing that is certain is that the people of Wales face needless uncertainty. The Minister should understand that Wales is not second class and the Welsh people are not second-class citizens. Wales deserves the answers to these questions.
I started my speech by saying that answering questions is a responsibility of government. This Government have been quick to shirk that responsibility. They asked us for trust during the general election, but trust is a two-way street, and the journey starts here.
Ms Armstrong:
It gives me great pleasure to answer the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans). I realise that, because there are now no Welsh Tory Members of
I welcome the hon. Member for Ribble Valley to the debate on the Bill, because we are always pleased to welcome new recruits. We announced last week after the Budget the amounts that the Chancellor had allocated to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We will use the Barnett formula--
Mr. Evans:
Will the Minister give way?
Ms Armstrong:
I am trying to answer the hon. Gentleman's questions.
We will therefore allocate £9.54 million this year to Wales and £33.38 million next year. That is the allocation according to the Barnett formula and we will undertake consultation in Wales on the precise distribution mechanism. As I have said, the definition of need was used consistently by the previous Government in their allocation year on year to the housing programme in Wales. They recognised that housing need in Wales is different from that in England, because Welsh housing stock is different. That is reflected in the manner in which need is assessed. I hope that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley understands that his new clause would be to the detriment of Wales.
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