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Mr. Battle: My hon. Friend has a clear and refreshing approach to the English language in the House and elsewhere. In the light of his comments about language and clarity, it strikes me that it is easy to get locked into computer acronyms and special terms. Many people still think that a floppy disk is a frisbee, so we have to get
away from technical language so that people are no longer afraid of the technology itself. Only a computer specialist would turn the simple word "stop" into a technical term.
Mr. MacShane: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. I remember feeling very sorry for the hon. Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce) when he was about to speak during Prime Minister's questions about a year ago. He was referring to an important European initiative called EURIM. In the hubbub, most hon. Members did not hear EURIM, but something that sounded similar and the important point that the hon. Gentleman wanted to make was lost. I am glad that he was standing up, not me. So clear language and an end to acronyms are vital.
My final point is relevant to today's debate and today's news agenda. It is the natural instinct of Conservatives to hoard and guard information. I believe profoundly that one measure that has been missing from the statute book for many years is an effective freedom of information Act. As someone who has been active in the Labour party for some years, I deeply regret that the Labour Administration of the 1970s did not grasp the nettle. If they had, we might have been governed in the 1980s by different and fairer means. Access to information is a contribution that the Government can make to the whole debate--not access to press releases or spin doctors' briefings, vital as they are. Indeed, I have done my spinning and written press releases in my time.
We will need effective freedom of information legislation. It has to extend beyond central Government. I believe profoundly that it will have to cover councils because they spend a great deal of money. It may have to extend to quangos and, indeed, to City boardrooms and trade union council executives because the better the provision of information, the stronger the chances of creating the one-nation partnership economy in which I know many of my hon. Friends believe.
The hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon), who is now absent from the Chamber, showed through his speech that five years of earning an honest crust has not brought him into the 1990s. His remarks on the British Airways dispute showed that, like all Bourbon ex-Members of Parliament, he has learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.
I suspect that the BA dispute and others will be resolved if both sides of the industry make full information available. I very much hope that, having heard the excellent conciliatory approach of both Mr. Morris and Mr. Ayling on "Today" this morning, that dispute can be settled. If British Airways is to become a great international success in full partnership with its employees, as I certainly hope, it will need to extend information. Similarly, the trade union will have to extend information about its thinking to avoid any other conflict.
Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset):
I am very grateful for being called in this important debate. It is good to follow the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane). I am very glad that he correctly referred to the information society and interpreted it widely. If we are talking about society--if Labour Members believe that there such a thing--there is obviously an information society.
I should like to translate what the hon. Member for Rotherham said for his hon. Friends on the Front Bench. Obviously, he was trying to stay on-message while giving a very clear message that he did not believe that what the Government are doing concerning a freedom of information Act is correct. I am sure that he will jump to his feet to correct me if I am misinterpreting what he said. It is interesting that one often tends to make interventions--certainly when one is in government--in order to give coded messages to one's hon. Friends on the Front Bench.
I was rather disappointed by what the Minister said about the information age. He took rather too narrow a view of his brief. I am glad that both the Minister and the Under-Secretary, who have taken over the portfolio of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor), enthusiastically agree how wide the debate is.
I was also a little disappointed that the Minister talked about digital ages as being different from information ages. He was getting a little confused about the delivery mechanisms. In fact, information is driving many things that are happening.
Mr. Battle:
I am not confused at all. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Bonn declaration, which will be put in the Library. If he had been listening to what President Clinton has been saying and had considered that, at the European Ministers conference in Bonn, it was said that we ought to address the digital age, he would realise that I was using language that the rest of the world is starting to use. We believe that we will move from analogue to digital and that it will have a profound impact.
Mr. Bruce:
The Minister prays in aid President Clinton and the European Commission, who are not quite as out of touch as him in describing the mechanisms. I shall come to that in my speech.
I take issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon). Nobody calls his constituency "Sevenoak". I suggest to all hon. Members that when they talk about information super-highways, they do not drop the "s". The "s" is dropped by a certain large telecommunications company, which believes that there should be an information super-highway, but when one discusses interconnecting networks the correct term is "highways". If we get into that mindset, we shall start to understand what the information revolution is all about: access to information in many different ways.
If, today, we discuss only computer technology, we shall miss the fact that society is changing in terms of how it does certain tasks. We must be careful to think about how to do the job rather than just how to deliver it.
A little has been said about big developments within the UK. British Interactive Broadcasting, which is part of the Sky empire, has been discussing how it wants to deliver services to the home. On digital broadcasting,
we have not discussed the revolution that is likely to come through a franchise for terrestrial broadcasting. BSkyB has been extremely active in that area. Although Mr. Murdoch has been a driver and a positive force in many of those technologies, he tends to monopolise them. When we talk of information super-highways and of opening up the market, however, we must ensure that the suppliers of information, particularly into people's homes via television, have ease of entry into the marketplace.
Incidentally, I do not agree with those who say that Murdoch's Sky television, for instance, has been an exclusive organisation. It has allowed many people cheap access to satellite television channels by its own charging mechanisms. One must look carefully at that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton was a little worried when he saw a sceptical person like me sitting in front of him, and felt that he had to apologise for discussing Europe. He had absolutely no need to do so. The most sceptical of Conservative Members believes in free markets in the European Community; indeed, we drove that forward. Europe has been dragging its heels on allowing matters to proceed on a Europe-wide regulatory basis because individual countries have been trying to keep their monopolies. One of the United Kingdom's great advantages is that it is ahead of the pack in information technologies. If this Parliament can make up its mind what it wants, regulations within the UK could become standard within Europe. America often follows rather than leads us in that respect. The Government must concentrate on maintaining that lead, which they have been given by the previous Government.
We must look at the broadcasting aspect because regulation is a nightmare and much remains to be done. We have touched on mobile telephones and on pricing, a Bill on which is now in the House of Lords. A great deal must happen for electronic commerce to work properly and hon. Members on both sides of the House have alluded to that matter already.
Many people think that the smart cards in their wallets are not part of the information age. Of course, they are. They are one of its key elements. Encryption, too, is important, as is voice management. When we make a telephone call in the future, will we talk to a person or to a computer that talks back? Those are all current developments.
The taxing of the Internet has been mentioned. Products can be bought and services can be provided and paid for internationally through the Internet. Where will they be taxed? This is a massive issue for the Government, and I am sure the Treasury will address it. We must also address it in this House. The packed Chamber today demonstrates how much interest there is among all my colleagues.
I used to be a work study engineer and, for my sins, I still look at things from the point of view of a work study engineer. Very often people talk about getting into new technology. For example, the Minister said that firms should have computers on the shop floor and, of course, computers have a role to play there. But we should be looking for appropriate technology. The first thing work study engineers are always taught is to eliminate a process altogether if it can be done. If one can avoid doing something at all--or take a step out of the process--please do so. One finds that people introducing a computer into their offices are often adding a process,
rather than cutting one out. Re-engineering is important in business, life and society--otherwise one adds costs to the operation.
There was a check list for work study engineers. What are you doing? Why are you doing it? When are you doing it? Where are you doing it? How will you do it? So often people say that they will bring in a computer, and one asks what they are going to do with it. The reply is, "I want to be computerised." One must ask again, "What do you want to do with it?" Often, we do not hear what people want to do.
We have heard a great deal about the Internet and, I am sorry to say, the rest of my speech will be about the Internet. I wish to refer to e-mails. If I encourage my constituents to e-mail me--my business card has my e-mail address on it--and if I want to send that to a Minister to seek a reply without using any paper, that clearly is efficient. But I cannot do that because I do not have the e-mail addresses. We should re-engineer what we do in this place, because we ought to be an example to the rest of the world. If we cut out paper and save a few trees by e-mailing, the process could be completed in a fraction of time.
I recently changed offices, as most colleagues do after each election. Most hon Members start in a broom cupboard miles from this place and eventually move to a broom cupboard without a window in this place. I am now up to a room with a window. If I lean out and peer round, I can see the dial of the clock on the clock tower. I wanted one desk with a computer so that I had a bit of space to work on, but I did not appear to have a terminal in the office.
I rang the PDVN and I was told that I would have a direct connection into the office by July. In the interim, I could use the normal modem system. I said that I would accept the office on that basis. It was important that I was to be wired in, as I was wired in in my previous office. I know the speed of the computer on the two systems, as I have my modem linked into the PDVN via my home. I am aware of the difference in speed and the problems of printing. I accepted the office and was told that I would get the terminal by July. It has taken me two months to get an instantaneous e-mail. E-mail is wonderful--getting information to put into it is a different thing. I hope that the person who is responsible for the PDVN and for cabling up this place will read this debate. When I find out who it is, I shall certainly send him or her a copy.
I have now received the definitive answer about when my office will be linked into the PDVN by hard wiring. It states:
"I have consulted our cabling people and there are no plans to cable T2-11"--
my office--
"until Summer Recess 1999."
I know that it is not the Government's direct responsibility. I have volunteered to the Opposition Whips to serve on the Information Committee, which oversees the work of those people. I hope that the person responsible for giving me that answer will have a plan to do it this summer while I am away for the recess. It is extremely important.
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