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11.30 pm
On amendment No. 3, there has been more than a little reinventing of the wheel. The criteria that have to be met before a PFI scheme is allowed to proceed are well known. They include criteria referred to in the amendment, including value for money, risk transfer and affordability. All those factors have to be taken into account well before an agreement is certified. In particular, they have to be taken into account when the Department of Health is asked to approve the full business case for a PFI scheme. Unless the criteria are met, a scheme will not be allowed to progress beyond that point and achieve certification.
The requirement for adequate prior consultation proposed in the amendment is an odd and subjective test. The right hon. Member for Fylde has just been giving us his views on subjectivity and on the need to improve objectivity. When he reconsiders the amendment, I am sure that he will agree that its wording--where it calls for "adequate prior consultation"--is inadequate. As I said, as part of our PFI review, we shall certainly want to look again at consultation arrangements to secure the right balance between the maximum public openness and the minimum risk to commercial confidentiality.
I shall turn finally to amendment No. 3--[Interruption.] I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Mudie), the deputy Chief Whip, supports me in my endeavours. As I have not been in favour of amendment No. 3, it follows that I shall not be in favour of amendment No. 2. Criteria such as value for money are considered before my Department or, indeed, the Treasury, approves the full business case for a PFI scheme. The amendment simply enshrines in law what already happens and, in doing so, complicates the Bill without achieving any changes in practice.
For all those reasons, I invite the right hon. Member for Fylde not to press his amendment. If he will not do so, I invite the Committee to reject it.
Dr. Brand:
We shall not press amendment No. 7 to a Division. But it would be good if the Minister could give an undertaking that the Audit Commission's annual management letter will be published. The Audit Commission considers the NHS and its effectiveness; it would be a good sign of open government if that letter were to be published.
The Minister has been reassuring all night, but he has lost me on amendment No. 6. I am not a lawyer, so I am not qualified to assess such things, but the amendment is absolutely clear. It states that we expect the Minister, before acting as final arbiter of a PFI scheme, to ensure that "PFI-ability"--as the night goes on, that phrase becomes more difficult to say--does not milk resources from other essential developments that a region needs. We have not received a reassurance on
that matter. The PFI cannot be taken in isolation, distinct from other capital and service developments. I should therefore like to stress that the amendment is necessary.
The other important issue is an acknowledgement that there is a need for a regional strategy. I hope that, in pressing the amendment, we will have the support of the Deputy Prime Minister, who I know has a great interest in regionalisation.
Mr. Jack:
I am grateful to the Minister, whose response to our points has been very courteous, for stating that he is to publish the details of the criteria outlined in amendment No. 3. However, I did not hear the hoped-for assurance that he would go a little further in terms of the details that he will provide. The point about publication is to press him to go beyond the rather bland statements in the criteria he used to select the 14 projects that are now able to proceed with negotiations.
The Minister looks pained--he is probably tired, because it is the first time he has been up as late as this. I know that it is difficult to concentrate on these matters, but those of us who have a genuine interest in those who need new hospitals will continue to press the Minister until he is alert to answer our questions. We need some numerical or objective measures to understand what are his new criteria.
Mr. Jack:
I shall give way in a minute. The Minister is a careful man and I have always admired the care with which he addresses the House of Commons. However, I would remind him of the terms he gave me in a reply, in which he said that the new review would be a bit different from the existing one. He stated that
Mr. Milburn:
The right hon. Gentleman has anticipated what I was going to say. We expect the criteria to be similar, but we will be making decision in due course. When we have made the decision, we will, of course, publish the criteria.
Mr. Jack:
I hope that that detail will be available to us, because it is very important. Our amendment No. 2 states:
I am grateful to the Minister for including the National Audit Office in the process and I agree with the way in which that has been done. I remind him that his comments on the question of having standard-form contracts in future borrow entirely from the successful policy we introduced into the Prison Service--or at least, we were getting there, but we were overtaken by events. There was a template arrangement in the Prison Service and I am glad that he borrowed from our good practice.
On the question of value for money, risk transfer and affordability, my comments about the Northern and Yorkshire region were not meant as a personal criticism of the Minister. However, he did not respond to my important point. My reason for pressing him was that he will achieve neither value for money nor affordability until he can answer questions such as: will having three new district general hospitals in a tight geographic area have any deleterious effect on the existing hospitals such as that in Darlington? Health experts have led me to understand that, as a result of that expanded capacity, there will be surplus capacity in Darlington that will have to be funded.
We shall look for the opportunity cost factors that will be involved in the exercise that the Minister is carrying out. I say that to save the Minister making an error in future. He is a reasonable man; I am as well, and I like to help Ministers who are moving towards our joint objective of having more PFI hospitals.
In the light of the assurances given by the Minister, we shall not seek to press amendments Nos. 2 and 3.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The Committee divided: Ayes 26, Noes 216.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon):
I beg to move amendment No. 8, in page 1, line 15, at end insert
"the criteria for measuring health service need is expected to be similar to that used to assess service need in the recent Private Finance Initiative prioritisation exercise".--[Official Report, 10 July 1997; Vol. 297, c. 584.]
That and other answers to parliamentary questions definitely led me to believe that there would be more than a passing similarity to the points made here. Can I tempt the Minister to the Dispatch Box to satisfy me on that point?
"The Secretary of State shall not give a certificate under this section unless he is satisfied that the agreement meets the criteria published",
and then we simply listed those. The Minister said the amendment was not necessary because the criteria would have had to be satisfied in the first place. My interpretation of our amendment is that that was the starting point of the exercise and that, once the criteria had been published, the
Minister's view of the world would then prevail--but, by definition, it could not prevail until the criteria had been published. We shall watch carefully for the details.
AYES
Allan, Richard (Shef'ld Hallam)
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Mrs Jackie
Brand, Dr Peter
Burstow, Paul
Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife)
Fearn, Ronnie
Foster, Don (Bath)
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gorrie, Donald
Harris, Dr Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kirkwood, Archy
Livsey, Richard
Oaten, Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Rendel, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Mr. Paul Tyler and
Mr. Phil Willis.
NOES
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham (Nottingham N)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond (Kilmarnock)
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Christine
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Canavan, Dennis
Cann, Jamie
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain (Hammersmith)
Colman, Tony (Putney)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Dawson, Hilton
Denham, John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Ms Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Fatchett, Derek
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Foster, Michael John (Worcester)
Foulkes, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gibson, Dr Ian
Godsiff, Roger
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Graham, Thomas
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hanson, David
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hill, Keith
Hinchliffe, David
Home Robertson, John
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian (Tamworth)
Jones, Ms Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Mrs Ann (Brentford)
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lock, David
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCafferty, Ms Chris
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Maxton, John
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Milburn, Alan
Moffatt, Laura
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Mrs Sandra
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pond, Chris
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie (Scarborough)
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Sawford, Phil
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr Howard
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela (Edgbaston)
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vis, Dr Rudi
Ward, Ms Claire
Watts, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wright, Tony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Mr. David Jamieson and
Jane Kennedy.
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