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Dr. Harris: We do not accept that the amendment puts any hospital at risk, and it is not our intention to stop the building of any hospital. We have consistently, and this year, promised extra funding for the national health service. The Minister's reference to bankers more eloquently betrays a lack of understanding of the nature of NHS functions as a public service than anything that has been said earlier.

We shall press our amendment on this issue to a vote. Following Ministers' remarks in another place, doctors, the Royal College of Nursing and ourselves are not satisfied. We shall put down a marker that it is creating a hostage to fortune to allow the private finance initiative to proceed into the field of clinical services. We shall press amendment No. 9.

The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. We must first dispose of amendment No. 8.

Dr. Harris: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment proposed: No. 9, in page 1, line 24, leave out from 'property' to end of line 25.--[Dr. Harris.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:-- The Committee divided: Ayes 26, Noes 174.

Division No. 55
[12.17 am


Allan, Richard (Shef'ld Hallam)
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Mrs Jackie
Brand, Dr Peter
Burstow, Paul
Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife)
Fearn, Ronnie
Foster, Don (Bath)
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gorrie, Donald
Harris, Dr Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kirkwood, Archy
Livsey, Richard
Oaten, Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Rendel, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Tonge, Dr Jenny

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Paul Tyler and
Mr. Phil Willis.


Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham (Nottingham N)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Betts, Clive
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond (Kilmarnock)
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Cann, Jamie
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain (Hammersmith)
Colman, Tony (Putney)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Darvill, Keith
Davidson, Ian
Dawson, Hilton
Denham, John
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff
Fatchett, Derek
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Foster, Michael John (Worcester)
Foulkes, George
Gardiner, Barry
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gibson, Dr Ian
Godsiff, Roger
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Graham, Thomas
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hanson, David
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hill, Keith
Home Robertson, John
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian (Tamworth)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lock, David
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Milburn, Alan
Morley, Elliot
Mudie, George
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
O'Neill, Martin
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pond, Chris
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie (Scarborough)
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Sawford, Phil
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Spellar, John
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr Howard
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela (Edgbaston)
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vis, Dr Rudi
Watts, David
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Tony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Tellers for the Noes:

Janet Anderson and
Jane Kennedy.

Question accordingly negatived.

14 Jul 1997 : Column 159

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New clause 1


'This Act shall come into force on a day to be appointed by order of the Secretary of State, being a day not earlier than 1st September 1997.'.--[Mr. Jack.]
Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Jack: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this, it will be convenient to discuss new clause 2--Date on which Act shall cease to have effect--

'This Act shall cease to have effect three years after enactment.'.

Mr. Jack: The Minister, who is an assiduous man, will no doubt be familiar with paragraph 29(vi) of the Bates report and paragraph 12(6) of a document that I am sure he has studied in great detail, "Guidelines for Smoothing the Procurement Process". Both deal with a matter of considerable importance to the Minister, who told us at the beginning of the debate that he wanted to do all he could to accelerate the PFI process and to leave a nice taste in the mouth of those who are involved in it. The reason we have tabled our new clause, providing a specific date for introduction of the Bill's powers, is to give him time to reflect and to consider the matters dealt with in the two numbered paragraphs. The Minister is perhaps a little unsighted, and I should perhaps explain the matter in a little greater detail. Paragraph 29(vi) of the Bates report--which I remind him has been accepted in full by the Paymaster General--states:

14 Jul 1997 : Column 160

    would have been capitalised. He disagreed, and said that expenses would have to be taken into account under revenue. Either way, a trust will lose after having spent a considerable sum. Ultimately, and more importantly, however, those whom the Minister wants to attract to his cause--contractors and others in a consortium--will lose out. As the Bates report states, the Government's policy is to reimburse people for their bidding costs if, through no fault of their own, a project comes to a conclusion unfavourable to them. We have suggested delaying by one month the Bill's commencement, so that the Minister may reflect carefully on his obligations if he is to stay in line with the stated position of the Paymaster General.

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