House of Commons
Tuesday 15 July 1997
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
King's College London Bill [Lords] (By Order)
Order for Third Reading read.
To be read the Third time on Tuesday 22 July.
Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Tuesday 22 July.
Local Authority Pay Settlements
1. Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to meet local authority representatives to discuss the effects of pay settlements in local authorities in Scotland. [6690]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Chisholm): My right hon. Friend met local authority representatives on Friday 4 July, but pay was not on the agenda. The local authorities know that any increase agreed must be funded from their existing resources.
Mr. Simpson: Will the Minister share his views on how a £4 an hour minimum wage would be funded if the Scottish local authorities and the trade unions agreed to pay such a wage?
Mr. Chisholm: Pay awards are matters for local authorities within their allocated resources. Clearly, the substantial increase announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in the Budget--£89 million for education--will help local authorities considerably next year. Adherence to the best value regime, which we are promoting as a key plank of our policy, will help local authorities greatly.
Mr. Gorrie: Can the Minister assure us that, within the budgetary constraints imposed on councils this year and next year, councils will be able to fulfil their statutory requirements?
Mr. Chisholm: Councils will be able to fulfil their statutory requirements and, because of the Budget, will have extra resources for education. We stand by our election pledge to make education our number one priority.
Mr. Welsh: As local government is one of Scotland's biggest employers, surely Labour's continuing of the Tory
policy of self-financing pay awards must lead to service cuts or higher unemployment. How many jobs will be lost or services cut as a result of this policy?
Mr. Chisholm: We said at the election that we would abide by the public expenditure guidelines that we inherited, for years one and two. We have found substantial additional resources for education, and we are expecting efficiency savings in local government from the best value agenda.
Dr. Fox: Is not the truth that the £4 deal is about Labour councillors buying off the trade unions in case they have to turn to them for support when it comes to running a Scottish Parliament, should one ever be established? Does not this mean that the ambition of Labour's second-raters will be paid for with the jobs and services of the ordinary people of Scotland?
Mr. Chisholm: The simple answer to that is no. The agreement is between local authorities and the trade unions and has nothing to do with the Labour Government. Labour and other authorities know full well that any pay award must be funded from within existing resources.
Scottish Parliament
2. Mr. Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps his Department will take to co-operate with local authorities in preparations for a Scottish Parliament. [6691]
The Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, Scottish Office (Mr. Henry McLeish): The Government are committed both to strong local government and to the establishment of a Scottish Parliament. We are committed to establishing an independent review to consider the relationship between local government and the Scottish Parliament, and we shall be consulting on its terms of reference after we publish the White Paper on our proposals for a Scottish Parliament.
Mr. Graham: Does my hon. Friend remember the absolute fiasco that local government was landed in by the Tory Government, and the fact that a lack of consultation and finance led to a disastrous position? I am absolutely convinced that the measure that the Minister has announced will strike up an accord between local authorities and the Scottish Office to ensure that we have one of the most famous Parliaments ever, set up in Scotland. I look forward to seeing close co-operation between the Scottish Office and local authorities.
Mr. McLeish: Let me assure my hon. Friend that we intend to ensure that co-operation and partnership strengthen democracy in Scotland. Our intention is to strengthen instead of weaken local government. We want to see powers moved from Westminster to Edinburgh, not from the Western Isles, Glasgow and Fife to Edinburgh. We make a firm commitment on that basis. In view of the spirit that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has shown, we believe that we can march forward together and ensure better-quality services and a fundamental strengthening of democracy.
Mr. Hogg: When the hon. Gentleman consults local authorities in Scotland, will he please make the point that
devolution proposals will not prove durable unless they are fair to England? Will he go on to make the point that the present proposals are not fair to England and will not be fair to England unless, for example, they are set in the context of a federal scheme for the entirety of the United Kingdom or, as another approach, they provide for a reduction in the number of Scottish Members of Parliament in this House, a reduction in their capacity to intervene in the affairs of other parts of the United Kingdom, and a further reduction in per capita spending in Scotland? Will he suggest to the local authorities that, if the Scottish people were faced with those realities, they might vote against devolution?
Mr. McLeish: Far be it from me to try to curb the enthusiasm of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. What he has just said to the House convinces us that, when he sees the White Paper, he will be able to acknowledge and discuss some of the important issues facing Scotland. We want a fair settlement. Enormous discussions have taken place, but at the end of the day the White Paper will be published and that will be the time for the nation and the House to debate those matters.
Mr. Canavan: May we have an assurance that the contents of the White Paper on the powers of the Scottish Parliament will be influenced more by our men of mettle in the Scottish Office than by our man of Straw in the Home Office?
Mr. McLeish: It is widely known that we in the Scottish Office are, indeed, men of mettle. I assure my hon. Friend that we shall produce a substantial and detailed White Paper which will ensure a fair debate. Scots will soon have the chance to vote in a referendum on their future. The House has taken some decisions already. It will soon have a White Paper to debate. Then we shall move on speedily to the referendum. After we have had an endorsement through a substantial yes, yes vote, we shall come back to the House and introduce a substantive Scotland Bill.
Fishing Industry
3. Mr. Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will next attend an EC Fisheries Council to discuss the Scottish fishing industry. [6692]
Mr. Chisholm: My noble Friend, the Minister responsible for agriculture, the environment and fisheries at the Scottish Office will normally attend Fisheries Councils. The next Council is planned for 30 October.
Mr. Cash: Does the Minister accept that the quota hopping agreement reached at the intergovernmental conference has been received with disgust by Scottish fishermen? How many representations has he received in favour of the agreement? Does he accept that the arrangements for a Scottish Parliament--if they ever come about--will mean that the Minister responsible for Scottish fisheries will be able to achieve even less than this wretched Government did in respect of Scottish fisheries at the IGC?
Mr. Chisholm: The hon. Gentleman is wrong on all counts. The agreement at Amsterdam was highly
significant. For the first time, we have a written statement from the Commission, which is guardian of the treaties. It sets out in precise terms the measures that can be taken to establish economic links between vessels and local communities. The new Government established more and achieved more in eight weeks than the hon. Gentleman and his friends achieved in 18 years.
Mr. Godman: May I remind my hon. Friend--if, coming from the old herring port of Leith, he needs such a reminder--that it was a Conservative Government who inflicted the common fisheries policy on our fishing communities throughout the United Kingdom and agreed over-generous concessions to the new member states of Spain and Portugal? The hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) ignores those facts. Will my hon. Friend assure me that he will continue to argue for a severe restriction in industrial fishing, particularly of sand eels at the Wee Bankie and the Buckie Man's Bank?
Mr. Chisholm: I agree that there must be tighter controls of industrial fishing. The Government support the common fisheries policy but, equally, we believe that it must be reformed, and we will pursue that vigorously from within.
Mr. Menzies Campbell: When the Fisheries Minister next visits Brussels, will the Under-Secretary ensure that he has in mind the importance to the Scottish fishing industry of its village-based component, not least in the East Neuk of Fife in my constituency? Will the Fisheries Minister seek to ensure that the common fisheries policy takes account of the problems of the village-based industry, especially as it is suffering from an aging fleet and declining work force? What assurance can the Government give that it remains an important part of the fishing industry in Scotland?
Mr. Chisholm: I shall certainly convey the concerns of the hon. and learned Gentleman to my noble Friend the Fisheries Minister. We have a wide agenda for reform of the CFP, including a greater regional dimension for it. I shall also convey the hon. and learned Member's concerns about Fife.
Mr. Doran: My hon. Friend will be aware that there is a serious problem of black fish in the North sea. Scottish Office inspectors have recently clamped down on the markets in Scotland, but there seems to be no evidence of that happening in English markets, particularly in Grimsby. Will my hon. Friend communicate with his colleagues in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to ensure that enforcement of all aspects of our fisheries policy is as intense as it is in Scotland?
Mr. Chisholm: I know that my noble Friend the Fisheries Minister has been very concerned about black fish since he took over at the beginning of May. He has promoted his concern in speeches in Scotland. I am sure that he will also convey to the Minister responsible for fishing in England the need to ensure that there is action against black fish in both England and Scotland.
Mr. Bernard Jenkin: Can the Minister confirm that, as a Scottish Fisheries Minister in a United Kingdom Government, he can attend, speak and vote at meetings of
the European Council of Ministers, but that, if fisheries became the responsibility of a Scottish Parliament, he would have to rely on an English Fisheries Minister to speak for Scotland there? How will that put Scotland at the heart of Europe?
Mr. Chisholm: As usual, the hon. Gentleman is wrong on matters of constitutional change. The Scottish Fisheries Minister will play a full part in those matters when the Scottish Parliament is created. I suggest that he reads with great care the White Paper when it comes out next week.
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