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Fishing
9. Mr. Mitchell: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how he intends to balance (a) fishing capacity reduction and (b) effort limitation in reaching the targets set out in the multi-annual guidance programme. [7283]
Mr. Morley: My colleagues and I are discussing this with leaders of the fishing industry.
Mr. Mitchell: I hope that my hon. Friend agrees that the combination of effort and capacity targets is a bad idea because it makes it difficult to secure transparency and to know what is going on with regard to limitation of effort by our competitors. I hope that he further agrees that, given that the reductions demanded of us will be so massive, it will be impossible to reach them without substantial decommissioning funds from the Treasury to help the industry and without some kind of set-aside net-aside for tie-ups from Brussels. If we cannot reach such targets, we will have no access to European funding, which all our competitors have had and the British industry needs.
Mr. Morley: I know that my hon. Friend has been a long-standing campaigner on behalf of his constituents and the British fishing industry. I know that he understands, as we do in government, that part of the problem that the industry is facing is due to the failure of the previous Administration under MAGP III in making progress in effort reduction. The fact remains, however, that there is a serious problem with overcapacity, as my hon. Friend knows. We have to tackle that with the industry. We want to give the industry the widest options concerning effort control. There is of course also a case for decommissioning, for which we have some funds available--£12 million. As he knows, we are talking with the industry about the best way of using those funds and the various options available.
Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
10. Mr. Tony Colman: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what he estimates to be the costs to date of BSE enforcement. [7284]
Mr. Rooker: The approximate cost of enforcement of BSE measures by the Meat Hygiene Service since its establishment in April 1995 until the end of March this year is a little more than £20 million. Obviously, there are no figures available for the current year. Details of any local authority enforcement costs are not held centrally. I should put the figures in context: BSE is costing the public this year £1.4 billion, and over a four-year period, £3.7 billion--not a penny of which has been planned for.
Mr. Colman: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. Perhaps those relatively modest amounts spent on enforcement reflect the failure of the previous Government to deal with the matter and ensure the very highest level of personal and consumer safety.
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his actions on Tuesday in stopping operations at two meat plants, thus ensuring that the illegal export of beef cannot take place.
Does that reflect a much more hard-hitting approach under the new Labour Government to ensure that consumer safety is at the top of the list?
Mr. Rooker:
I agree entirely with the first part of my hon. Friend's question. It is clear that the previous Government were slack in the extreme in enforcing BSE measures. That is why so little has been spent. The activities on Tuesday will be detailed in a further answer. We shall publish before the end of the year the hygiene assessment scores for every abattoir and slaughterhouse in the country. Frankly, anyone who continues to buy from any establishment that has a low score needs his head looking at.
Mr. Greenway:
We cannot have it both ways. Earlier, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food joined the hon. Member for City of York (Mr. Bayley) in paying tribute to the Meat Hygiene Service, which is based in York, and I join him in that. The Minister of State, however, appears to be saying that the standards of enforcement were not good. What is the truth? Should we be concerned not about the standards of enforcement in this country but--if the Minister's plan to ban beef imports from other European countries that do not meet the same hygiene standards is to have any meaning--about enforcement in abattoirs in other European countries?
Mr. Rooker:
Let us get this clear. Staff in my Department have been carrying out the duties requested of them by previous Ministers. Previous Ministers were the ones who were slack. They deliberately sought not to enforce the regulations. Staff were required to follow those orders, which has left us having to close abattoirs at a few hours' notice. If there are any culprits in the matter, they are sitting on the Opposition Front Bench and the Benches behind. As the costs and consequences of the BSE legacy emerge and become apparent to present Ministers, we can see ever more clearly that the previous Government's handling of BSE amounted to nothing less than economic treason.
Mr. Campbell-Savours:
My hon. Friend used the term "slack in the extreme". Will he make a statement, and place it in the Library, of what he found out about BSE when Labour took over the Government? From all reports, it sounds shocking.
Mr. Rooker:
I assure my hon. Friend that we asked all the questions that would come immediately to mind. We are still awaiting some of the answers.
Mr. Swinney:
In the light of the Minister's statements about the costs of BSE enforcement, it is obvious that there is cross-party enthusiasm to solve the matter as early as possible. Does he recognise the unease of the National Farmers Union for Scotland that the twin-track proposals announced by the Government suggest that one track may move faster than the other? Will he assure us that the twin-track approach will maintain the same pace for each aspect of the certified herds scheme and the date-based scheme?
Mr. Rooker:
The hon. Gentleman's question goes somewhat wider than the original question. We are moving
Organic Farming
11. Mr. Corbyn: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans he has to increase support for organic farming. [7285]
Mr. Morley: We have already made it clear that we want to encourage an expansion of organic production and we are considering the best ways of achieving that.
Mr. Corbyn: Does my hon. Friend recognise that many organic farmers have a sense of grievance? They feel that they are discriminated against by the Department and are forced to charge higher prices for their products because their concern for conservation of the soil and the natural environment in which they work is such that they are unable to use the high-growth fertilisers and pesticides that other farmers use. They feel that the pricing system militates against them. Will my hon. Friend ensure that that sense of grievance is dealt with and that they are treated on a par with organic farmers in other parts of the European Union?
Mr. Morley: Yesterday, the Government responded formally to the Select Committee on Agriculture, which made recommendations on organic farming. This morning, at the Agri-Environment Forum, I had the opportunity to discuss the issue with Patrick Holden of the Soil Association, who made a powerful case for more support. The Government want to see more organic conversion. The present structures have caused problems for farmers wishing to convert and we are reviewing them. Demand for organic produce is so strong that we are importing produce, but we wish to see British farmers meeting the demand with organic produce.
Beef Exports
12. Mrs. Anne Campbell: To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking to prevent illegal beef exports. [7287]
Dr. Jack Cunningham: All allegations are urgently and rigorously investigated. My hon. Friend will be aware that as a result of serious hygiene concerns arising from investigations into such allegations, my Department and I issued notices on 14 July preventing two meat plants in the United Kingdom from trading in beef.
Mrs. Campbell: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that farmers in my area are concerned about any illegal activity, which can only help delay the lifting of the ban on British beef exports? Is he further aware of how welcome his prompt and firm action has been to local farmers?
Dr. Cunningham: Overwhelmingly, farmers and legitimate and responsible meat traders will be infuriated by the allegations that British meat companies have been
involved in a European Union-wide fraud, especially as the European Union ban on British beef came into effect in March 1996. I draw the attention of my hon. Friend, her constituents and the House to the fact that by 1 May this year no new legislation had been enacted in the United Kingdom to place the ban on a statutory footing. I intend to introduce new legislation shortly to clarify and strengthen my powers to deal with suspected illegal exports and to enhance the checks that are carried out at ports.
Mr. Gray: Does the Minister accept that the only way to ensure the same high standards in beef imported from continental abattoirs as we have come to expect from our own abattoirs would be to undertake to send our meat hygiene inspectors or our rigorous MAFF vets to inspect the abattoirs on the continent from which we are to import? Will he raise that idea with his ministerial colleagues next week and undertake to say that we will not import European beef unless it comes from abattoirs as demonstrably fine as our own?
Dr. Cunningham: That is an absurd proposition. I have no such powers to send my meat inspectors into meat plants in other countries. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the European Union has its own inspectorate for such purposes.
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