| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Welsh: When the Minister mentions unavailability of access to higher education for working-class people, is he really including Scotland? For the people who surrounded me growing up--many of whom went on to do degrees in Scotland--the higher education system was open to all. Such availability is what I want to preserve and enhance. Is the Minister sure that his comments are true of Scotland? They are perhaps true of England and of Wales, and that is sad. I should like England and Wales to adopt, not destroy, the Scottish attitude.
Dr. Howells: All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that I should like to see the statistical breakdown of postal addresses of those in higher education. The Higher Education Funding Council conducted such an exercise in Wales and in England and the results were very interesting, showing pretty dismal patterns of access to higher education for people from lower social and economic groups.
Mr. Robert Jackson: I, too, share the concerns expressed by the Minister and by the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Welsh). Does the Minister accept that the proportion of working-class children entering higher education has risen only in the past five or six years, under the regime of student loans? Why has that increase occurred? It has occurred because universities expanded enormously. The main determinant of access to university for working-class people is the size of the university system. In the old system--with its low participation levels and very expensive grant scheme--unit costs were so high that the system was kept small, militating against
access. Now, however, by spreading the burden through loans, we are able to have a larger system, thereby promoting access.
Dr. Howells: That is a fair analysis of what has happened over the past 10 years, and it is important that the hon. Gentleman has reiterated it in the House.
Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield): Will my hon. Friend allow me to intervene before the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Jackson) gets away with his comments completely?
Mr. Sheerman: I agree with much of what the hon. Member for Wantage said, such as the importance of widening availability to higher education. The cultural element, however, is also important. I am not aware of any system that successfully enough breaks into working-class culture to open the minds of young working-class people, so that they regard education as a part of their lives and culture. Action dealing with the cultural element must accompany widening the scope of availability. I agree with half of what the hon. Member for Wantage said, but we must go further. Forty years ago, Brian Jackson wrote "Education and the Working Class", based on a study in Huddersfield. He understood the problem; we have still not found a solution.
Dr. Howells: My hon. Friend is correct: we do not have a solution. Because we did not have a solution, the previous Government--with the support of all Opposition parties--commissioned an inquiry into the future of higher education, and it will be as important as the Robbins report was 30 years ago. I hope that the report will be vigorously and robustly debated and examined.
Anyone who argues that the current situation is perfect is a fool, because it is not perfect. If we are to create a learning society--no hon. Member or member of the public who thinks about the matter would argue that that is not necessary--we must determine how to make higher education attractive and how to make communities understand the great part that education can play in generating wealth in those communities.
Mr. Robert Jackson:
Notwithstanding the comments of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman), we can address those goals against a very optimistic background. There are some striking figures. There has been a huge increase in the staying-on rate in schools after the end of compulsory education at 16, and, in the past 10 years, there has been a huge increase in the uptake of higher education. The penny is dropping, and we are reaching a situation in which people accept a learning society. The key to the future is to provide a large, open, flexible and diverse higher education system.
Mr. Welsh:
I make a plea to the Minister to examine the situation in Scotland, because the Government's proposals will restrict access to higher education and deter students. The Minister has described a system that has
It should not matter from which part of the country someone comes. There should be a national system that is available to all, and education from the elementary to the university level should be available to all according to ability. That is our system in Scotland, and the Government's policy is working against it. I should be happy for the Government's proposals to apply to England, but let us, please, not ruin what we have in Scotland.
Dr. Howells:
The hon. Gentleman clearly has his opinion on the great virtues of the Scottish education system, and, as someone from Wales, I certainly will not decry it. The virtues that he is extolling surprise me, however, because many of my Scottish friends would not agree with his analysis. They have told me that the situation in Scotland--the percentage of young people from working-class backgrounds in the university population--is as dismal as it is in England and in Wales.
Ms Roseanna Cunningham (Perth):
Will the Minister give way?
Dr. Howells:
No, the hon. Lady was not in the Chamber for the debate, and I will not give way now. I want to press on.
I suggest to the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Mr. Willis) that, in future, he should not let the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) write his speeches for him. Having been a member of the Public Accounts Committee for more than two years, I know the value of the contribution that the Comptroller and Auditor General's office can make in getting legislation right. We hope that the House has learned from the National Audit Office's examination of past privatisations, and I assure the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough that the NAO will examine this one, too. I give him that undertaking. The NAO examines all privatisations, and it will examine the privatisation of student loans carefully.
The hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Jackson) says that it has been 10 years to the month since he tried to initiate a debate on top-up fees. He provided a fascinating history, and I understand his desire to put straight the record on his part in the matter. I should remind him and all other hon. Members, however, that today's debate is not about top-up fees or about any type of fees; we are debating a technical matter which, as the Bill states, is about selling the debt of the student loan book.
Mr. Robert Jackson:
Does the Minister accept that the proposal will take student loans out of the public sector borrowing requirement, thereby providing a crucial link to the debate about fees?
Dr. Howells:
The measure certainly has elements of that in it, but there is no hidden agenda.
The Bill is straightforward and technical. Its sole purpose is to enable us, this year and next, to complete sales of student loans. We are completing those sales because they are critical to meeting, this year and next, our manifesto commitment to living within existing spending plans. Some Opposition Members questioned our objective. I repeat: we shall meet our manifesto commitment. In doing so, we shall be able to give priority to our education programmes, which have been enthusiastically received.
Some hon. Members have raised concerns about the position of borrowers whose loans are sold. Let me stress that we are selling the loans by way of competition. The bidders are all large and reputable organisations, and there is no question of the loans being sold to some ruthless or fly-by-night organisation. That is complete fantasy, which does no service to students and borrowers. We shall retain control over whom the loans are sold to now and in the future.
There are other safeguards for students. The sale agreement with the purchasers, a model of which will be placed in the Library in due course, will stipulate minimum collection standards to be followed. The loan agreements will protect students. In particular, key terms such as time and manner of repayment and deferment will be retained and frozen. Borrowers will have the protection of consumer credit legislation. In addition, there will be an independent assessor to investigate complaints. Overall, borrowers' legal rights will be entirely unaffected by the sale.
The Minister for School Standards and I have explained why we are going ahead with the loan sales this year and next. We have also accepted that meeting the overriding objectives we have identified will result in the payment of subsidies to the purchasers. Existing loans are subsidised. There is no real interest rate; there is deferment. The loan book that we are selling has to be subsidised. That is the price of having loans that are generous to the borrowers. We cannot predict the level of subsidies in advance, because we are running a strong competition. Twenty substantial bidders are already competing against each other. We shall, in due course, choose the most competitive bid from the vigorous competition.
As I have said, we are now committed to the same plans and same sales for two years, but this is not our only objective. We are also committed to the establishment of public-private partnerships which, like this sale, will transfer risk to the private sector. The sale may also enable financial institutions to get a clearer understanding of student loans and encourage them to play a more direct role in the provision of student support in the future.
The Bill is not about the Dearing report. Its reference to Dearing is limited, as my hon. Friend made clear. The Bill is about meeting a key manifesto commitment that we would work within the spending plans already announced for two years. Those plans, which we inherited from the previous Government, include substantial sales of student loans this year and next. The plans are tight, and we must proceed with the debt sales if we are to meet them and give to education the priority that we want.
Our timetable is pressing. The sale competition is inevitably complex and time consuming. It will take at least another six months. Hon. Members should understand that we cannot resume the competition before
Second Reading. Second Reading is needed before the recess, which is why we are here today and why I commend the Bill to the House.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |