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Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes): The Secretary of State has obviously laboured mightily since his days of voting no to devolution in Wales in 1979. He has brought forth what can only be described as a mess--a vast constitutional mess, the full extent of which will probably become apparent only when we see the draft legislation. That, I suspect, is why we have today a White Paper rather than a draft Bill. There is much that the Government seek to hide from the people of Wales before they vote in the referendum on 18 September.
The White Paper is called "A Voice for Wales". Rarely can there have been a worse misnomer. In reality, the White Paper's proposals amount to the marginalisation of Wales, its sidelining at Westminster and in Government, and the silencing of the voice of Wales where it matters, at the heart of Government. It would be better to call it "A Lost Voice for Wales", because at the end of the day, by definition, this will be a voice that ends up speaking only to itself. This expensive, bureaucratic talking shop will spell the beginning of the end of the great and historic influence wielded by Wales in the United Kingdom. It is bad for Wales, it is bad for the people of Wales, and it is bad for our United Kingdom.
On Friday, we shall debate the details of this damaging document. There will be many probing questions to be asked, to which we shall expect to hear answers. I must tell the Secretary of State that the days for bluster are over: the people of Wales deserve to be given the unvarnished facts before they are asked to vote on 18 September, and we need answers now.
Let me start that process by asking the Secretary of State a few questions now. First, where in the White Paper is the power promised by the Prime Minister in Wales last Friday for the people in Wales, through the Assembly, to run their police? Will that power in fact remain with the Home Office? If so, why has the Prime Minister changed his mind in such a short period?
Secondly, will the Secretary of State assure the House that the overall setting-up costs and running costs of the Assembly set out in the White Paper will not be exceeded? Will he confirm that those costs will be borne by existing Welsh spending programmes and not by the British taxpayer as a whole? Will he also confirm that, under his proposals, the Assembly would have the power to cut revenue support grant to local authorities in Wales in order, if it so chooses, to increase spending on its own programmes, thereby forcing local councils to make good the shortfall by raising council tax? Does he not agree that, if that were to happen, in effect it would be a back-door form of tax raising? How would that fit with his undertakings that there are no tax-raising powers in the White Paper?
What is the difference between an economic powerhouse and a super-quango of the sort that the Secretary of State is committed to destroying? How much does he expect to save from his reorganisation of quangos, and how many jobs in rural areas will be lost as a result of that reorganisation?
What will be the real role of the Secretary of State other than as a messenger boy, running to and fro between the Cabinet and the Assembly--a sort of glorified "Postman Ron"? What role will he have in future public expenditure survey reviews, which are so important to the provision of Welsh services, when he will have no responsibility for the matters over which he is arguing? How can he hope to win crucial funding battles with his colleagues in Cabinet? Will he not swiftly become the invisible man at the Cabinet table?
How will the Secretary of State's list system of electing additional members work if the Euro-constituencies on which, according to the White Paper, it is based are abolished in pursuance of the wider Government policy on proportional representation in Euro-elections?
Finally, is it not clear that, far from providing a satisfactory or durable solution, this White Paper presents the opportunity for massive disappointment and consequent disillusion with the devolutionary process, and establishes the basis for a focus of discontent, which will increasingly threaten the integrity of the United Kingdom? Is this White Paper not a fraud on the people of Wales--more like a sales pitch for a dodgy timeshare deal than a document intended to make constitutional history? On reflection, was not the Secretary of State right in his 1979 instinct of voting against devolution for Wales, and would he not be sensible to return to that position now?
Mr. Davies:
No, I would not. I will deal with the last point that the right hon. Gentleman has raised at the conclusion of my replies to him.
If the right hon. Gentleman were concerned about the integrity of the United Kingdom, he should have reflected carefully on the attitude of the previous Conservative Government, who ruled Wales ruthlessly in the interests of the Conservative party and of Conservative appointees, rather than of the people of Wales.
If anyone has exacerbated the political situation in Wales, it is my predecessors as Secretary of State: the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who brought the Conservative party into disrepute in Wales, and my immediate predecessor, the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), who managed, thanks to the Conservative record, to ensure that no one in Wales now speaks for the Conservative party, which lost every seat at the last general election defending the status quo. I should have thought that the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) would reflect on that.
On the specific questions that the right hon. Gentleman has raised, the Bill will provide for the transfer of my functions to the Assembly. I do not have responsibility for the police at the moment--although, of course, the Assembly will be able to debate such matters and to make representations. He has raised the question of tax-raising powers. We have made it absolutely clear that the Assembly will not have any direct tax-raising powers. [Hon. Members: "Direct--ah."] Well, of course, I have made it absolutely clear that the Assembly will not have direct tax-raising powers. It will have responsibility for the allocation of the block grant, just as I now have responsibility for that grant. Those powers were exercised by my predecessor in a way that deliberately inflated council tax bills in Wales for the past two years. He wrote
to right hon. and hon. Members stating that it was the previous Conservative Government's deliberate policy that council tax bills should increase by more in Wales than in England.
The right hon. Member for Devizes mentioned the rural areas. I give him the categorical assurance that I have given hon. Members who represent those areas that there will be no diminution in support for the rural parts of Wales as a result of the reform of the Development Board for Rural Wales. He spoke about the role of the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will continue. Under previous Administrations, the Secretary of State served to bring the Tory writ from Whitehall to Wales. Under Labour's proposals and under the Assembly, the Secretary of State will be the voice of Wales in Government in Westminster and Whitehall, and that is an interesting and worthwhile development.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the additional Member system, and queried what would happen if we were to review constituency boundaries. We would have to deal with that matter at the time, and if the European constituency boundaries were amended, we would have to make provision for the continuation of an additional Member system in future elections.
The right hon. Gentleman started and finished on my decision to reverse the position that I held in 1979. In 1979, I voted against the devolution proposals for what I believed to be a good reason at the time. We had just had an extensive reorganisation of local government, which forced on us in Wales two tiers of local government. There are no longer two tiers: we now have a single tier of unitary authorities. When the right hon. Gentleman has had time to learn a little more about Wales, he will understand our system of local government.
In 1979, we had recently entered Europe, and we faced the prospect of the first elections to the European Parliament. That was a novel development at the time, and there was confusion about the role of the regions in Europe. Since that time, there have been substantial changes. We now have a new relationship with Europe, and I believe that the interests of my country and Britain's regions will be better served by having a positive and distinctive voice in Europe. The powers that have been increasingly devolved to Wales by the right hon. Gentleman's party, by successive Conservative Secretaries of State, since 1979 have resulted in a panoply of powers in the Welsh Office, which need to be put under democratic control.
Finally, I have learnt a bitter lesson since 1979--that rule by the people of Wales, electing their own representatives and deciding their own priorities and policies, is a far better prospect for our people than continuous rule by Conservative Secretaries of State, who represent no one but their own vested ideological interests.
Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney):
Sadly, I say to my right hon. Friend that I do not think that the document is a bonfire of the quangos. The vast majority of the quangos and the quango state will survive to at least 2000. May I ask him why?
Mr. Davies:
We have made it clear in our White Paper that we shall take immediate action to remove nine of the quangos. Within what is called the quango state, there are
Secondly, some quangos were set up by royal charter. It is not within my gift to bring about changes to those bodies, such as the Sports Council for Wales or the governing body of the museum. They must consider their own structure in the light of the Assembly. Thirdly, the sector that deals more specifically with my hon. Friend's concerns consists of the executive quangos. We have taken direct action. We are removing some quangos that deal with economic development or directly with the health service or with housing.
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