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Mr. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire): The Liberal Democrats welcome the White Paper. It is about time that Westminster woke up to its responsibilities to other parts of the United Kingdom, and this is the first important step in achieving that for Wales. I am sure that everyone here who is genuinely interested in democracy will support the tenets and the concept behind the White Paper. That is why I hereby categorically state that the Liberal Democrats will campaign for a yes vote on 18 September.
Naturally, there are aspects that concern us. What, for example, will be the future format of regional development support in place of the abolished Development Board for Rural Wales? How does the Secretary of State intend to restructure health provision to try to alleviate the desperate health crisis, especially in the context of the cottage hospitals?
There are also questions about local government, and within that also the reassurance, which I know is in the document, but specifically in terms of the appraisal of exactly what the local authorities will be allowed to do--[Hon. Members: "Question."] So my question is: will the Secretary of State reassure us that, over the next seven weeks, he will listen sympathetically and constructively to proposals made by those in other parties and by the general public, to ensure that we have not just a voice for Wales, but a voice for all Wales?
Mr. Davies:
I very much welcome the hon. Gentleman's announcement that he intends to campaign
Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire):
Blaenau Gwent.
Sir Patrick Cormack:
Blaenau Gwent.
Mr. Davies:
The hon. Gentleman is giving us a perfect example of the sort of politics that I want to get away from.
I welcome the commitment by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik) to campaign for a yes vote on 18 September. I assure him that I understand the concerns of rural Wales, especially his constituents' fears about the merger of the DBRW with the Welsh Development Agency. The new body will build on the best of both organisations, and it is my absolute determination--I can give the hon. Gentleman a guarantee here and now--to ensure that the work of the DBRW will be continued by the new agency when it is established.
We have made it clear in the White Paper, and it will be a continuing commitment by the Government, that the Assembly will not encroach on the powers of local government, but will work in partnership with it. I believe that, as the quango state is wound down, there will be opportunities for local government to embrace more and more powers, and to play an increasing role in our national affairs. Equally, we are determined to unwind the health quangos. Money saved by reducing the number of quangos will go towards improving the quality of health care.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon):
May I say at the outset that we welcome a number of aspects of the White Paper--those proposals that will be beneficial to Wales. None the less, it will provide an Assembly that we feel is substantially less powerful than Wales needs. At the very least, we should have had a Parliament with powers as strong as those promised to Scotland.
However, no one can deny that, on 1 May, the Government had an overwhelming mandate in Wales for their policies. Was not the scale of the Tories' defeat in Wales, where they lost every seat, a reflection of the disgust felt there at their abuse of power--imposing by governor-general and by quango what they could not secure by democratic mandate? Does the Secretary of State agree that the one overwhelming reason why the people of Wales will vote for his proposals is that they will be seen as a bastion to protect Wales from ever again being the victim of such arbitrary Tory rule?
We welcome the fact that no powers will be taken from local government, that Wales will have a higher profile in Europe, and that the Assembly will be free to develop its policies on a range of issues; but I seek an assurance that the needs of rural Wales will be specifically safeguarded
under the new proposed structure. Will the Secretary of State confirm that it will be possible for the Assembly to use its powers on a regional basis within Wales, so that, for example, North Wales or Dyfed Powys health authority would become answerable to the elected representatives from those areas?
Will the executive of the Welsh Assembly have as full a right as the Scottish Parliament to fight its corner in Brussels? That consideration is important to agriculture and industry in Wales. Will the Secretary of State confirm that this Assembly is to have substantially stronger powers, especially with regard to economics and the development of the Welsh economy, than that proposed in 1979?
We shall study the White Paper carefully. The status quo is not an acceptable option, and we can only hope that the proposed Assembly will have the potential to give Wales the democratic government that our country so greatly needs and deserves.
Mr. Davies:
I think that I can reasonably interpret that as a qualified welcome, and I appreciate it as such, although I understand that the proposed Assembly is a far cry from the Parliament on which the hon. Gentleman and his party fought and lost the election; as he rightly says, these are our proposals. He is right to suppose that the Assembly will act as a bastion against the prospect of a further Conservative Government, but I happen to believe that it has merits in its own right: it will improve our democracy, and give us better government.
I especially welcome the hon. Gentleman's comments on local government and Europe. There is a developing consensus in Wales about the way forward. The new economic powerhouse will certainly be required to have a system of regional directors, and one of those will by and large mirror the area of the existing Development Board for Rural Wales, so there will be a clear responsibility to continue the board's work.
There are some difficulties that we would have to overcome to achieve the outcome for area health authorities that the hon. Gentleman proposes. There is a statutory requirement on those authorities to include professional medical representatives, and that would obviously have to be accommodated in any reorganised system. At the moment, we also have a binding commitment to operate the Nolan rules for appointments to area health authorities, and we would have to ensure that those rules took account of the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but I assure him that it would be possible to go down that road if the Assembly so decided.
Wales will not be disadvantaged in our representation in Europe as compared with the Scottish Parliament and its Ministers. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct to say that the current proposal is infinitely stronger than that of 1979, not least in the central mechanism that we are providing to enable the Assembly to improve the living conditions and economic prospects of the people of Wales.
Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West):
Does the Secretary of State, like the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), see the Assembly as an evolving concept, developing its powers
Mr. Davies:
No, I do not agree with my right hon. Friend that it is a mystery tour. Parliament is sovereign and will decide to what extent it wants to devolve powers to the people of Wales. We propose to consult the people of Wales by means of a referendum, and they will decide whether they want to embark on the process; if they decide that it is a tour in which they have no interest, they will tell us so on 18 September.
However, I do indeed consider the Assembly to be an evolving concept. Since 1964, there has been increasing devolution of power to Cardiff. A Secretary of State with very limited powers was appointed in 1964, and those powers were exercised under the Government loyally served by my right hon. Friend, and increased by successive Conservative Secretaries of State. Now, in 1997, there is an extremely powerful Welsh Office, with a budget of about £7 billion; that is out of all proportion to anything that could have been envisaged in 1964.
As Secretary of State, I have responsibility for the equivalent of seven or eight Westminster Departments. No one could have conceived in 1964 that the Welsh Office, as then created, would have become the body that it is today. If the Assembly evolves and becomes more representative, if it gives us a better democracy and serves the people of Wales better, if we have a better economy and more effective public services, that is evolution that I would very much welcome.
Dr. Michael Clark (Rayleigh):
Does the Secretary of State recall saying in his statement that decisions relating to schools and health in Wales will be taken by people elected by the people of Wales? Does he agree that decisions on schools and health in England will also be taken by people elected in Wales--Welsh Members of Parliament? Does he think that that is right, or does he believe that the English do not have the same right to make their own health and education decisions as the people of Wales?
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