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Mr. Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Hon. Members seem to have forgotten that lesson rather easily. Over the past 17 years, we have had Conservative rule in Wales, which has been unacceptable to the majority of people. We now have to take the opportunity of a new
Government who have a clear majority to ensure that the events that have been visited on us due to the unbridled ideology of the Conservative party--quite unsuited to our needs, circumstances or aspirations--are never allowed to reoccur.
Mr. David Hanson (Delyn): I welcome the commitment given in the statement to regional committees, particularly for north Wales. Will my right hon. Friend give some indication of how that regional committee will relate to the rest of the Assembly? May I also take this opportunity to welcome the redundancy of several of my constituents who hold lucrative positions on quangos but who have never received a vote in Wales, and who sit on those bodies only because they have Conservative party cards?
Mr. Davies: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, and I am grateful, as ever, to receive his report. The Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), will be holding a press conference in north Wales on Thursday, when he will go into more detail about the north Wales committee. It would probably be for the convenience of the House if I were to leave it at that for the moment.
Mr. Huw Edwards (Monmouth): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the voting system that he has proposed will ensure that we have fair representation in the Assembly and a more consensual form of politics, which deserves to be supported by all parties in Wales--not least the Conservative party, which secured no seats but received 20 per cent. of the votes at the general election?
Mr. Davies: I agree. Rather than standing outside the locked doors of the Welsh Grand Committee pleading to be let in, the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) would do rather better to try to persuade the Conservative party to adopt a policy of proportional representation. The proposals that we are putting forward commanded the unanimous support of the Labour party in Wales. I am pleased that they received also the support--qualified though it is--of both the Liberal Democrats in Wales and, as I understand it, Plaid Cymru. That shows that it is possible to build a cross-party consensus, which points the way to more mature, sensible politics.
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) rose--
Madam Speaker: It is my impression that the hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) did not enter the Chamber until the Secretary of State either had finished his statement or was well into his delivery. I make it clear to new Members that I call upon hon. Members to question a statement only if they have been in the Chamber to hear that statement. That is common sense, and it is a courtesy to whoever makes the statement.
Mr. Letwin: Madam Speaker, I was in the Chamber for the Secretary of State's statement and during the observations by the shadow Secretary of State. I then left the Chamber for a few seconds, and returned.
Madam Speaker: In that case, I shall call the hon. Member for West Dorset to ask a question. However, I assure hon. Members that I have very good eyesight,
and that I make a note of all those who leave the Chamber, as I did in the case of the hon. Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce).
Mr. Letwin: In light of the Secretary of State's various remarks about sovereignty, are there any circumstances in which primary legislation or powers given to the Secretary of State or others under primary legislation would be used to overrule decisions of the Welsh Assembly?
Mr. Davies: It is a matter of fact that the House is sovereign. It can do whatever it wishes, and it may be that, from time to time, it will override decisions taken by the Welsh Assembly. I think that that would be bad for government and bad for democracy. However, as long as our constitutional arrangements exist in their present form--and our proposals are compatible with the House's remaining sovereign--that is what will occur.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) contributed a highly pertinent article to The Times on, among other things, Welsh representation in Europe. Throughout his statement, my right hon. Friend referred to the voice of Wales in Europe. Will he be clear how that will differ from the existing arrangements?
Mr. Davies: We do not have a Welsh Assembly at present, and it will clearly make a difference when we do. When that Assembly is created, a provision will allow its executive members to discuss with the British delegation the views taken by that delegation and the arguments presented on behalf of the United Kingdom. If there are matters of particular relevance to Wales and to Scotland, when there is a Scottish Assembly, the Assemblies could assist the respective Secretaries of State--who have particular territorial responsibilities--in reflecting the views of Scotland and Wales more vigorously.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley): Does the Secretary of State intend to stand for the new Assembly, if it is
created? He might as well do so, because, after he has given away most of his powers to that Assembly, he will not have much of a role to perform here as Secretary of State for Wales.
Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm also that, including the cost of the referendum, the new Assembly will cost £42 million in the first year, plus £20 million for each successive year? Therefore, in its first four-year term, the new Assembly will cost more than £100 million.
Does the Secretary of State agree that the people of Wales will want that money not to be wasted on a new Assembly building, but spent on improved housing? Does he agree that they will want to see that money spent not on new politicians, but on more teachers for Welsh youngsters; not on more bureaucracy and civil servants, but on more hospitals and nurses? If a spare £100 million is sloshing around in the system, let it be spent on providing real services for Wales, and not just on another tier of government that will cause discord and conflict among Westminster, the Assembly and local authorities.
While the prospect of seeing the Secretary of State silenced is very attractive, the £100 million cost to the taxpayer is too much. The Assembly would be not "A Voice for Wales" but a vice on Wales, which would squeeze money out of services and spend it on new, useless and wasteful bureaucracy.
Mr. Davies:
I can now understand why the leader of the Conservative party has decided that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) shall not lead for the Conservative party in Wales. The right hon. Gentleman has appointed Jonathan Evans, who failed to win a seat in the House at the last election, as the Conservatives' official spokesperson in Wales.
As to my own political future, that is a matter that I shall discuss with my party and my constituents. I assure the hon. Gentleman that, if he and I were to stand for the Assembly, I think that my chances of election would be rather greater than his.
We do not propose to construct a new building for the Assembly, or to create more bureaucracy in a democratic Wales or more civil servants; so I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman's figures do not add up.
Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset):
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I apologise to you, and thank you for calling me during questions on the Welsh statement. I left the Chamber during the statement to get a copy of that statement, which became available to hon. Members as the Secretary of State rose.
I consulted the White Paper, and asked a question which, because of the way in which it was framed, the Secretary of State answered with the words "yes, yes and yes". Hon. Members asked many questions about the White Paper that could be answered simply by reading that document. Hon. Members often do not have the paperwork to which our constituents assume we would have access.
Would it not be simpler to make the papers available five minutes before a statement is delivered, or allow attendants to bring the papers into the House? We could then see what is being said, and perhaps matters could progress faster.
Madam Speaker:
It is for the Secretary of State to determine what papers will be made available. The hon. Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce) is an experienced parliamentarian, and I think that he made the point himself: hon. Members did not question the White Paper today. We will debate that document later. Today, we questioned the statement that was made by the Secretary of State. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman had no reason to leave the Chamber to get a copy of the White Paper, which will be debated in a few days' time.
Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury):
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Does the Secretary of State for
4.45 pm
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