| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Keith Bradley): This has been a lively and, generally, well-informed debate on an important Bill. It has shown that many hon. Members agree that welfare reform should be--and is--high on the national agenda.
Creating a modern, active welfare state is at the heart of the Government's commitment to tackle poverty and dependency, and to strengthen community and family life. For far too long the welfare system has given claimants a hand-out rather than a hand-up. It has ignored their aspirations and responsibilities. It has paid the growing costs of failure, rather than investing in success.
We aim to extend opportunities to all so that no one is excluded and everyone plays a part; to help people to take responsibility for themselves and their families; to rebuild a strong and cohesive society. We are already offering a new deal for the young and long-term unemployed and giving practical help to lone mothers who want to work. We are developing a national child care strategy and conducting a wide-ranging review of provision for retirement.
There are many challenges ahead as we set about reshaping the welfare state for the 21st century. The Bill lays firm foundations for the future. It will help to create an active, secure and integrated system of welfare delivery. It tackles the outdated, cumbersome procedures which prevent customers from obtaining the service that they deserve. It will ensure that all employers meet their responsibilities to pay national insurance contributions and makes it easier for them to do so. It shows that we are committed to doing all that while living within budget, even if that means being prepared to take tough decisions.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet (Mr. Burgon) on his maiden speech, its context and humour. I also congratulate him on supporting the Bill tonight, so ensuring that his constituents have a modern, fair and efficient social security system. I welcome his support for the enhanced use of information technology in achieving that end. He paid a generous tribute to his predecessor which was clearly welcome in the House. However, he was on rather weaker ground when he was discussing the fortunes of Leeds United football club. As a Manchester Member of Parliament, I have every confidence that the championship will return to its rightful and spiritual home in 1998.
I am pleased that the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) readily accepted the flaw in the reasoned amendment in the name of the Liberal Democrats. We welcome that. I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel). The amendment says that the Bill
First, the reasoned amendment says that the Bill will result in a slower appeals process and more judicial reviews. We dispute that. We are retaining an independent
appeals system and current rights will be protected. There is no reason to suppose that more people will have cause to seek judicial review. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is introducing a new right of appeal on contribution questions. Her proposals will make appeals quicker, not slower. Better explanations, the ability to correct decisions and the fast-tracking of hopeless appeals will result in the freeing-up of the tribunals' time, enabling them to deal with cases with genuine grounds for appeal in a quicker and, more importantly, more considered way. The separation of judicial and administrative functions will result in better organisation and control, which will also reduce waiting times, without affecting judicial independence.
The amendment says that the appeals process will be less fair. We dispute that. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has maintained the right of appeal to an independent tribunal and tribunals will have the right expertise to deal with the type of cases before them. A legally qualified chairman is not necessary if no legal point is at issue. We want to ensure efficiency and fairness in the system.
The amendment goes on to say that the Bill will discourage lone parents from working. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made it clear that our priority is to help lone parents into work and many hon. Members today have reinforced our commitment to ensure that that happens. We shall invest in practical measures to get them back to work, to help them with job shares, to help them to find child care, to build their confidence and motivation and to develop the appropriate skills to find work.
The new deal for lone parents was launched yesterday. I launched it in the Halesowen office in the north Worcestershire area, and I was amazed at the enthusiasm, commitment and overwhelming desire of the staff and public to ensure that the new deal works for lone parents. Many lone parents have contacted that office: they want an interview as soon as possible so that they can have a personal adviser to help them get work. That is our priority, and that is what we are committed to achieving through these measures.
Mr. Rendel:
I fully accept the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm for the new deal for lone parents, but that has nothing to do with the Bill. Does he accept that the measures in the Bill are a discouragement to work?
Mr. Bradley:
The Bill has everything to do with the issues that I am raising, because we are determined to ensure that lone parents in work are £50 a week better off. The family credit measures will ensure that appropriate child care facilities are available to them.
Reference has been made to sharing information and to the use of computers. We are talking not about big brother, but about a sensible approach to ensuring that information technology is used in the future to give customers a better service. My hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) and for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford) made excellent points about the use of technology. I stress that the Secretary of State is accountable for every decision, whether it is made by staff or computers. What is important is not machines and processes, but responsibility and accountability for the outcomes of those processes.
Hon. Members have suggested that transferring all decision making to the Secretary of State will mean a loss of independence. I assure the House that decision makers
will still be impartial, and will decide cases according to the facts and the law. The law as it stands makes deciding customers' claims complicated and time consuming. The Bill will create a simple, transparent system, which will be better for the staff who run it and certainly better for the customers who use it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. Browne) referred to the chief executive's report. The chief executive will produce a report and provide comprehensive monitoring of the system. The report will take account of the views of the public and will meet the criteria laid down by Ministers. We want the new appeals system to be monitored effectively. Monitoring reports will be submitted to Ministers and the public. The National Audit Office will continue to have a role in monitoring and reporting to Parliament on the agency's performance. In addition, the president of the tribunal service will report on the standard of decision making in cases that go to appeal. We are seeking comprehensive ways of monitoring the system in the future to ensure that it is accountable to Parliament.
Many hon. Members have raised the issue of backdating. That has been dealt with in the debate, particularly in the speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Wythenshawe and Sale, East (Mr. Goggins) and for Colne Valley. I do not retract one word of what I said about ensuring that claimants receive their entitlement through a proper take-up of benefits. That is totally different from backdating. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun rightly pointed out, clause 70(2)(b) contains hardship provisions, and we shall explore that further in Committee in due course.
Mr. Webb:
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) spoke warmly about the benefits helpline, which the previous Government abolished. Given that the Government are now penalising people who are ignorant of the benefits system, will the hon. Gentleman reinstate that helpline as a quid pro quo?
Mr. Bradley:
As the hon. Gentleman will know, we are working within departmental budgets, but we want to ensure the creation of a fast, efficient and effective system--which we believe that the Bill will deliver--and we shall consider all the ways in which that can operate in practice.
The provisions relating to national insurance contributions may not have been given enough prominence in the debate, although they were raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Corby (Mr. Hope) and for Edgbaston. The measures in the Bill, and the further changes announced today by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, close loopholes in the law that have allowed some employers to avoid paying their share. Those moves will ensure that contributions are paid on non-cash payments under restricted covenants, and on payments in vouchers. That last provision will be known in future as the Asda amendment.
To deal with minor non-compliance, the Bill will replace the current outdated criminal offence with a modern and effective cash penalty regime, aligning the system with the Inland Revenue's penalty regime and giving the Contributions Agency similar powers to take distraint action to recover debts.
National insurance fraud is a serious offence. The Bill introduces tough new criminal penalties for fraudulent evasion, but it will also actively help businesses by
ensuring that certain taxes on benefits and expenses are dealt with in the same way by the tax and national insurance systems. I hope that hon. Members in all parties will welcome those measures. As many hon. Members have pointed out in the debate, the House cannot condone fraud, wherever it may occur. We are determined to root it out, and to use all the measures in the Bill--particularly those relating to information sharing--to ensure that it can be weeded out at the earliest opportunity.
Throughout the debate, Back Benchers have made excellent speeches. I especially commend the speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Bradford, North (Mr. Rooney), for Kilmarnock and Loudoun and for Corby, as well as the wide-ranging speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Pond) and the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Edgbaston. All those hon. Members can bring a wealth of experience to debates on the Bill. I also commend my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale, East--whose constituency is next to mine--for the expertise that he has gained from his work with Church Action on Poverty. He spoke with understanding and insight about what happens in the real world--about people trying to claim benefits and becoming bogged down in a mass of regulations, appeals and decisions that they do not understand. That, I think, is what the Bill is all about.
My hon. Friends the Members for Colne Valley and for Wirral, West (Mr. Hesford) emphasised the fact that the aim of the Bill was to provide a better service and an understandable system, and to ensure that people received their rights and entitlements at the point at which they needed them. We want to make it unnecessary for those people to go through the appeals system and a labyrinth of decision making. I am sure that many Labour Members who have spoken will prove to be very good members of the Standing Committee, and that we shall have excellent debates in Committee on all the matters that have been raised.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, West referred to clause 23. We shall consider the clause in Committee, and I am sure that we shall be able to allay his fears then.
The Bill tackles fundamental problems in welfare delivery and national insurance security to set us on the road to a modern, open and efficient social security system. We have to put the whole Bill in the context of our general welfare reform programme. It would be wrong for the House to believe that the Bill is the beginning and the end of that process. It is a building block along that path and we are determined, in the months and years to come, to use it.
Tonight, we are setting out a framework for transforming the delivery of welfare. The Bill radically overhauls complex legal arrangements that have grown up piecemeal over the years. It will enable the Department to develop modern business processes and to make better use of modern information technology, making significant strides towards a streamlined and integrated service. It will secure the national insurance system by reinforcing employers' responsibility to make fair contributions. It will help all employers by cutting red tape, while cracking down on serious cases of fraud. It will protect the integrity of the system by closing loopholes used for avoidance and improve consistency by aligning certain tax and national insurance rules.
In our manifesto, we made a commitment to live within spending limits. The Bill makes provision for changes announced in the Budget that enable us to deliver on that. Our spending priorities reflect our commitment to use limited resources where they are most effective and to provide active help to people on benefit. Our decision not to extend the single-room rent to people aged over 25 was clearly a step in that direction and a change from the policy of the previous Government. However, in taking that decision, we had to take other tough decisions. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have welcomed the decision, so they have to accept, within the spending limits, the consequences of that action.
With the Bill, we shall continue to pursue our new active approach to social security. We want to build a modern welfare state that supports work, savings and honesty and that helps people to meet their responsibilities. To achieve that, we need a system that is straightforward, efficient, open, simpler for the staff who run it and clearer for the customers who use it. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 47, Noes 304.
"will"--
I emphasise that--
"will result in a slower appeals process, with more appeals being the subject of judicial review".
The hon. Member for Newbury used the word "could" rather than "will". We need to be clear what the Liberal Democrats are saying. Are they saying what will happen as a matter of certainty or are they merely speculating? It is our strong contention that the issues that they have raised are addressed in the Bill.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |