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Mr. Morley: I shall deal with that point now, so that it does not get lost later. The hon. Gentleman did not mention the important principle that we have a legal obligation to meet the requirements of multi-annual guidance programme IV. Apart from the legal obligation, we wish to ensure that the economic link works, and we shall consult the industry on that point. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the real issues of sustainability and stock management, and we cannot ignore those in relation to the MAGP IV proposals.
Mr. Salmond: The industry does face real issues of stock management and capacity, but the previous Government assured the industry that they would not proceed with the capacity reductions until the quota-hopping difficulty was solved, precisely because of the fear of large capacity reductions in the domestic fleet, but none in the quota-hopping fleet.
Mr. Salmond: That is a reasonable fear in the industry. If the Minister does not acknowledge that, his contacts in government with the fishing organisations are not as close as they were when he was in opposition.
Mr. Morley: I must emphasise the point that the quota-hopping fleet is made up of UK-flagged vessels that come under UK regulations. They will be treated in the same way as any UK vessel. Indeed, as the MAGP IV reductions are on a segment basis and some of the big reductions are in the beam trawl sector, which contains many quota hoppers, they will take their share of the reductions. There will be no exemptions.
Mr. Salmond: The fear in the industry, as the Minister knows, is based on the fact that the quota hoppers' financial condition is somewhat better than that of many other elements of the domestic fleet. Therefore, however
the Minister approaches the reductions--whether by effort limitation, by a further reduction in total allowable catches, or through a voluntary decommissioning scheme--it is likely that more people in the domestic fleet will be forced to the wall than in the quota-hopping fleet. The industry's reasonable fear is that the capacity reductions could increase the quota hoppers' 25 per cent. share--which, I know, is not uniform across the various categories in the industry--by a rapid shrinkage in the domestic fleet and only a modest shrinkage in the quota-hopping fleet.
Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby): I apologise to the House and to the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. George), who was successful in obtaining this important debate, for not being here at the start. I was unfortunately detained in what one might call the bowels of the House, watching the debate through the periscope. It is interesting to come from a subterranean position to debate something even more subterranean--the common fisheries policy and the monstrous situation that it imposes on British fishing. I shall speak only briefly, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so.
The hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) vividly described the common fisheries policy, and it is certainly a monstrosity. It is not good enough to say, as the Labour party manifesto did, that the policy needs drastic reform, because it needs ending. A system that takes political decisions, doling out paper fish and limiting catches by quota, cannot work. It is the enemy of conservation, because it puts fishermen in direct competition with each other. There is no point in the British industry conserving fish and introducing more effective conservation measures, because the fish that are saved by the British fishing industry will be scooped up by European competitors. [Interruption.] My speeches usually attract a lot of attention. I was not heckled during the election, because nobody turned up at my election meetings, so it is nice to have it happen in a new format.
As long as competition is the ethos behind the policy and fishermen are in competition with each other, conservation is not possible. The CFP, although meant to conserve, is therefore the enemy of conservation. It is not working, it cannot be made to work and it should be ended.
Mr. Gill:
The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that the only effective way to deal with many of fishing's problems is to end the CFP, but that is not the popular view. That does not mean to say that those of us who
Mr. Mitchell:
I would not describe the hon. Gentleman's position, or indeed mine, as a minority position. It is the position of the overwhelming majority of the fishing industry, certainly in England, if not in Scotland. Everywhere I have been to talk to fishermen, they have expressed a hatred for the CFP and a desire to leave it. We now have a benign Government with a more sensible approach to Europe, but if I were in charge of policy, we would come out of the CFP. That is legally possible, and the arguments that we could not come out do not stand up. We could do it, we should do it and, if I were in power, we would do it. However, in the current, practical situation, I recognise that no Government, Labour or Conservative, will do it.
The right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) is smiling, but the previous Government were more grovellingly sycophantic and servile towards Europe than the Labour Government will be. Every time the previous Government demanded something for the British fishing industry and a sine qua non was reached in the negotiations, the Tory Minister was required to climb down because the Government were in conflict with Europe on another front. In order to win on the other front, the fishing demands were abandoned or diluted.
This Government will not come out of the CFP, but we are in the same position as Sisyphus--rolling a stone up a hill, only to have it slip back again. If we are not to support withdrawal as a strategy, we must have a clear alternative strategy for fishing policy in the new century. It is no good the Government saying that they will reform the CFP, because they have to be committed to a strategy that will get the British fishing industry what it needs. If we are not going to adopt what might be called the extremist approach of withdrawal, we should remember that the ability to do so is available to strengthen us in the negotiations. We should know that we could withdraw and, if we do not get concessions that would make the British fishing industry viable, we should do so.
What strategy should that be? I know that my hon. Friend the Minister is interested in the coastal state management proposals of the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations, and I hope that he will attach himself to them. We should aim at those proposals, because they seem to be the most effective way of approaching the problem, offering a viable system of management for the changes necessary in 2002.
I agree with the argument put forward by the hon. Member for Ludlow and Save Britain's Fish about there being an intention to create a European fleet and end national effort. Alternatives to that are needed, because no British Government would accept such a proposal. The alternative has to be coastal state management, because it is the only practical proposition.
My hon. Friend the Minister attaches a lot of weight to relative stability, which is becoming the fig leaf of Governments. I doubt that it can be maintained. It was not maintained for the Spanish accession. We talked of relative stability, but British effort was cut, particularly in the south-west, to make way for Spanish vessels.
The same will happen when the big fishing fleets of eastern Europe come in. Room will have to be made for them. It will be very difficult to maintain relative stability.
It is no use just being attached to relative stability. We need alternative management proposals. The coastal state management strategy provides an alternative.
Mr. Salmond:
I agree with a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman is saying, particularly about coastal management. I know that he has read the Scottish National party's documents on that. If relative stability is not an important factor, guaranteeing protection for domestic fishermen, why are the Spanish fishing interests so concerned to overturn it?
Mr. Mitchell:
I agree. That causes me to doubt what I am saying about relative stability, but I still think that I am right that it will not be a viable defence against changes. I have read with pleasure the SNP fishing documents. I am always amused by how such a passionately pro-European party can suddenly become so hostile to one of the three central common European policies--the common agricultural policy, the common fisheries policy and the common currency. Now that the SNP has stood on its head and abandoned its opposition to Europe to become Euro-sycophantic, it is nice to see touches of the old nationalism coming out in the party's approach to fishing.
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