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Mr. Blunkett: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments, and I appreciate the way in which he made them. I appreciate also the difficulty that all political parties face in addressing those difficult issues.

The Government are mindful of people on lower incomes, which is why we shall waive tuition fees for them. We are mindful also of the issues that have been raised about part-time students, and, in the autumn, we shall introduce proposals to address those issues. As I said, we appreciate that there are special issues in Scotland. Some students in England and Wales, too, are on courses lasting four years or more. On the issue of funding, I can only reiterate what I have already said twice today: the entire objective in taking our difficult decisions has been to put higher education on a firm footing for the next two decades. We appreciate the way in which the Liberal Democrats are approaching the issue, and we are happy to work together with them.

Mr. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk, West): How can a Labour Cabinet that includes so many beneficiaries of

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Harold Wilson's comprehensive system of university grants even contemplate kicking away the ladder of opportunity from so many present and future students, by depriving them of grants and forcing them to pay tuition fees? Does the absence from the Treasury Bench of any Scottish Office Minister show that, for Scotland, the Government's reactionary proposals will be transferred to a Scottish Parliament--which, I hope, will kick them into the bucket where they belong?

Mr. Blunkett: I understand my hon. Friend's strength of feeling and the nostalgic view of a time when only one in 10--actually one in 20--people went to university. People from the area where I was raised never dreamt of going to university, and if we do not expand higher education, many of them will still not get there.

I do not want tears for the working class, because I am one of them. I want decisions and action to protect the poorest people, so that they will not be denied access and so that they will not have to pay fees. I have already made it clear that availability of hardship loans will be extended. Above all, I want to ensure that we do not wring our hands about the privileged at university, while ignoring those in further education who do not have the benefit of earning, on average, one fifth extra in salary over their lifetime.

Mr. Robert Jackson (Wantage): I am sorry to dissent from the line being taken by my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), but I congratulate the Government on the statement. Of course, the devil will lie in the detail--which we have yet to see--but I believe that the Government have taken a courageous decision, which should be supported by everyone who has universities' interests at heart. I ask the Secretary of State an important, detailed question: can he give a categorical assurance that the Government will not attempt in any way to limit the existing freedom of our colleges and institutions of higher education to charge tuition fees?

Mr. Blunkett: I very much welcome the hon. Gentleman's welcome for our statement, given his knowledge and background as a former Minister. Given the extent of what we have announced this afternoon and the commitment to investment in the universities, we have to make it clear that we cannot have a freebooting system, in which top-up fees help some at the expense of others. I understand the strong feelings of those in universities who believe that they could raise lots of money independently from the state, but that would be done at the expense of a comprehensive and coherent university system.

Mr. Bill Rammell (Harlow): Following the previous question, I hope that we intend to stop universities charging top-up tuition fees, and that we shall explore legislation to ensure that that does not happen. Many of the elite institutions are already extraordinarily socially exclusive, and the introduction of further discretionary top-up fees for individual institutions would make that much worse.

Mr. Blunkett: We shall explore whatever is necessary to ensure equity in the system. I say to the university

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vice-chancellors who have mooted top-up fees that they cannot have it both ways. They cannot threaten to introduce top-up fees because the Government have not addressed their financial needs, including investment in the future, and then introduce top-up fees when the Government have grasped the nettle.

Mr. John MacGregor (South Norfolk): We shall obviously have to see the details of the Dearing report, but does the Secretary of State recognise that his acceptance of at least some of the Dearing proposals on financing shows that we were right in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and that his party's approach, especially on student contributions, was wrong? What will be the public expenditure profile on education for the next five years, as a result of the announcement? Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the most important areas of the Dearing report is the maintenance of standards and qualifications as we expand higher education yet further? What does he intend to do about the proposals in that respect?

Mr. Blunkett: I respect the right hon. Gentleman's commitment and knowledge, but the criticisms we made--about the payback period, the lack of a contingent, progressive nature of the loans and the amounts levied on those on relatively low incomes--still stand. The progressive nature of our proposals will ensure that people on less than £20,000 a year will be expected to pay less on average than such people currently pay. I accept that we shall need to spell out in the White Paper the profile of the investment and expansion that will be required in the years ahead. I shall not do that this afternoon, because our proposals need to be integrated with the Dearing proposals. Sir Ron's proposals raise differing sums depending on the income-contingent basis and the starting point for the loans.

Charlotte Atkins (Staffordshire, Moorlands): I represent a constituency with many low-income families. How will the Secretary of State's proposals maintain the principle of free education for the poorest students?

Mr. Blunkett: Anyone from a family with an income of less than £35,000 will receive some contribution towards their fees. Anyone from a family with an income of between £16,000 and £23,000, depending on the discounted elements of that income--which at the moment, remarkably, include mortgages but not rents, and child care costs for the better-off but not for the poor, because of the way in which they are applied--will not pay the fee at all. Therefore, they will be protected. What is more, the existing loan, translated into our new contingent loan scheme, will result in lower-income graduates, when they are earning, paying less than they do at the moment.

Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough): Expanding access and numbers in higher education will be of little value without quality. We welcome in particular Sir Ron's proposal for an institute. What role does the Secretary of State expect the profession to play in that institute? Will it be the commanding role of regulating itself?

Mr. Blunkett: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has raised that. Involving the profession in developing the

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role of the institute for learning and teaching will be critical. Many students have said to me that the issue that worries them most is the deterioration in quality--or, in some isolated cases, the lack of commitment--of those who are teaching them. The quality of teaching, as well as maintaining the quality of research, is crucial in higher education. Involving those in the teaching profession and ensuring that they are equipped to do the job will be a great gain for our students of the future.

Mr. Derek Foster (Bishop Auckland): Some in the House will know that I have some respect, and even a little affection, for the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), who leads for the Tory party on education. However, he lost the plot this afternoon, as he frequently did during the general election campaign. No one is better placed than my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to deal with these extremely difficult problems, and he is tackling them courageously. His struggle for an education, as someone from a poor family, and handicapped person at that, is an inspiration to us. I have total confidence that he will deal with the problem, protect poor families and expand access to higher education.

Mr. Blunkett: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. In thanking him for his comments, I say to those on the Government Benches who remain unconvinced, many of whom also experienced further education and evening classes, that when we went to university, we found mainly the privileged there. Regrettably, over the past 40 years, the profile of those going to university has changed by only a fraction. If we commit ourselves to opening up access to those who have been traditionally excluded, we shall achieve a lot more than hand-wringing.

Mr. Andrew Welsh (Angus): How can the Secretary of State argue that he is increasing access to higher education by introducing a means test? Will he put a stop to higher tuition fees in Scotland until a Scottish Parliament has had a chance to consider the issue from a Scottish perspective? What guarantees can he give that access to the traditional four-year Scottish honours degree will not be restricted and that the structure will not be destroyed? Why are we not having a Scottish statement, to find out what is happening to our education system?

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