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Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin): Order. The debate is about ministerial salaries, not about events of recent days. The odd mention of such matters is perhaps all right, but concentrating on them is not.

Sir Patrick Cormack: But, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am merely giving one or two examples of what Ministers receive their salaries for.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am merely giving an instruction about how the hon. Gentleman should proceed.

Sir Patrick Cormack: Thank you very much indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Ministers receive their salaries for performing their duties and one of their prime duties is to expound and defend their policies in the House. I am pointing out that, in recent days, we have had some sad examples of the neglect of that duty. I think that it is highly relevant to point that out when we are discussing ministerial salaries.

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A time-honoured way of criticising a Minister is to move a motion that his salary should be reduced by a notional amount. I should not contemplate tabling such a motion relating to the right hon. Lady at the moment, but I am tempted to think that we might have to consider it for certain of her right hon. colleagues.

We strongly support the general principle of the Bill. As the right hon. Lady rightly said, it is entirely sensible that we should not have to come back year after year to debate this. She has our support on that. That is why the Opposition have no intention of seeking to divide the House. We are talking about ministerial salaries. As a result of the Bill, they will not have to come back year after year. There is all the more reason, therefore, for saying that Ministers should recognise the duties for which their salaries are paid.

The explanatory and financial memorandum says that the Bill provides the power to make orders to make different provision for different circumstances. That cannot lead to arbitrary increases, but it can be used in another way.

I revere this place. This is where the business of the nation should most properly be discussed. This is where announcements of policy by Ministers should properly be made. The prime duty of a Minister resides in this House. To neglect that and to bypass this House is to be guilty of a serious transgression. I hope that those for whom we are about to pass the Bill will recognise that next April, or whenever they take--as they are rightly due to take--the full salaries that Parliament has decreed should be theirs.

5.41 pm

Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall): I do not want to follow the hon. Member for South Staffordshire(Sir P. Cormack) into the intricacies of leaks over recent weeks, ministerial responsibilities, or his historical references about what a duke could live on 150 years ago. I endorse his welcome for the Bill, because it takes away from the House the annual embarrassment of a vote on ministerial and other salaries as with the remuneration of Members of Parliament. I agreed so warmly with the hon. Gentleman that I am almost reluctant to point out to him that during 18 years in power, the former Government, of which he was not a member--I can at least allow him that absolution--broke that principle on many occasions. They broke the linkage and caused embarrassment deliberately for party political reasons. They lived to rue the day. I hope that that will not happen again.

It may not be immediately apparent to all hon. Members that the Bill is also relevant to salaries other than those of Ministers. I understand that it is the base on which the linkage is made for certain payments to Her Majesty's Opposition--the Conservative party. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Gorrie) obtained the up-to-date figures a few weeks ago. The Leader of the House, in her capacity as President of the Council, was kind enough to give us the information. The current salary of the Conservative Leader of the Opposition is £55,000, paid by the taxpayer. The salary--also paid by the taxpayer--of the Opposition Chief Whip is £31,125, with the Opposition deputy Chief Whip receiving £20,029 and the assistant Opposition Whip also

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receiving £20,029. That makes a total of £126,183. I hasten to explain to anyone who is not aware of the fact that other Whips, including me, receive not a penny of public money from that source.

In addition, the salaries and costs of civil servants attached to the Conservative Opposition Whips Office are £88,657. The provision of a car and driver to the Leader of the Opposition costs an estimated £58,095. He has either a well-salaried driver or a big car. My right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) receives not a penny from that source to make sure that he is mobile.

The President of the Council referred to a little help in kind in her answer, telling us that

"The House authorities supply the office with three copies of each of 12 daily newspapers for each day the House is sitting. An exact figure for the total cost is not readily available."--[Official Report, 10 July 1997; Vol. 297, c. 524.]

Her Majesty's Opposition, in the form of the Conservative party at present, receive a substantial dollop of money. Now is the time to review that. The hon. Member for South Staffordshire properly drew attention to the fact that the Bill provides different provision for different circumstances. We have different circumstances in this Parliament. The appropriate ratios and remuneration for Her Majesty's Opposition in the 1992-97 Parliament are clearly inappropriate for the current 1997 to whenever Parliament.

I do not know the right criteria. Perhaps the payments could be age-related. The Leader of the Opposition is much younger than the leaders of some other parties. They could be size-related, based on the number of seats occupied by a party. The Conservative party occupies three or four times as many seats as the Liberal Democrats, so perhaps that is the right ratio.

There has been a qualitative, as well as quantitative, change in the role performed in this place by the parties. That has been apparent in recent weeks. This week, providing opposition to the Social Security Bill--the proper role of Her Majesty's Opposition--fell to the Liberal Democrats, because the Conservatives all went home, did not divide the House and did not argue against the Bill. Last week, when we debated the capping of local authority expenditure, the Conservatives were gone. Who performed the role of Her Majesty's Opposition? It was the Liberal Democrats. If there is to be remuneration, the money should go with the job. Now is the opportunity to review that.

We are talking about a considerable sum--at least, it is for my party; it may not be for the Conservative party. Some £300,000 or thereabouts is a goodly sum. It would get me out of some of the difficulties that I have in trying to employ the quality of staff I require.

Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham): I have been following the hon. Gentleman's argument. How much would he like to receive?

Mr. Tyler: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for putting that suggestion to me. I should be happy to see what the Government were prepared to offer. Clearly, it would have to be on a pro rata basis. I have already suggested that the salary paid to the Leader of the Opposition might be age-related. My right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil would then receive more than the leader of

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the Conservative party. If the payment were based on the number of seats, the ratio might be different. That is not a matter for me. I am merely taking up the point of the hon. Member for South Staffordshire that the Bill provides for different levels of remuneration in different circumstances. I am saying that there are different circumstances in this Parliament and that we should follow that argument through to its conclusion.

Sir Patrick Cormack: How does the hon. Gentleman respond to the point made this afternoon by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) that he is now a quasi member of the Government, receiving all the benefits that membership of a Cabinet Committee confers?

Mr. Tyler: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman raised that point because he, like me, has an interest in history. He will know as well as I do that on several past occasions in our Parliament, Members of Opposition parties have taken a role in government. It has not been across the whole broad sweep of policy, but they have been involved in specific activities on specific issues where there has been agreement. I think that he is with me on this. I must not betray the confidences of the Committee considering the modernisation of the procedures of the House, but from his contributions there, I think that he understands and agrees that this is now a different sort of Parliament.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is getting at. There is mention in the Bill of funding for Opposition parties, but it is a narrow Bill, primarily about ministerial salaries. I want to point that out to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Tyler: I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was led astray by the hon. Member for South Staffordshire.

The Bill provides a very good framework for ensuring that we do not have the annual argy-bargy on the Floor of the House on ministerial or parliamentary salaries. I hope that we can hear from the Leader of the House on the specific question of whether she is prepared to review those sums paid to opposition parties which come within the ambit of this Bill. In the meantime, I hope that we can acknowledge that this is a useful, sensible and flexible framework to work on in future. I welcome the Bill.

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