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Mr. Dewar: I am sorry; I made the cardinal error of assuming that I was a Scot for the moment. The right hon. Gentleman may have experienced some psychological amputation that removed him from Scotland, but I have not.
The important point is that there is a United Kingdom delegation involving a United Kingdom policy position, for which we all work and which we all try to promote.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow):
What are the Treasury's estimates of the cost of the proposals?
Mr. Dewar:
If my hon. Friend, whom I know to be assiduous, consults the White Paper, he will see that there is some help on those matters. The United Kingdom is essentially a partnership in which we pool our resources and allocate them on an agreed basis. There will indeed be some additional cost for example--for running and equipping the Parliament--but I suppose there will be additional costs for running and equipping this building. Most people here think that it is rather a good bargain for the people who have to live within the framework of Westminster legislation. I suspect that that will also be the view of Scottish people.
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough):
The right hon. Gentleman asks Conservative Members what right we have to pontificate on these matters. On behalf of my English, Lincolnshire constituents, may I ask what right he will have after devolution to vote in this House to close Caistor or Gainsborough grammar schools while I will have no right, as he will have no right, to vote for the future of education in his constituency?
Mr. Dewar:
The arrangements for the devolved Parliament and its terms and abilities will be decided by the votes of all this House. If the House, which is sovereign, thinks that that is right and good--and there are pressing, urgent and good reasons for it to take that view--I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman should challenge that.
Mr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde):
Speaking as a federalist, may I compliment my right hon. Friend on his remarkable work and his fine White Paper? He is right to remind constitutional conservatives in this place that we live in a multinational state. If the people of a constituent nation in that state seek the reform of the
From time to time, disputes may arise between, say, London and Edinburgh. Would it not make good sense for my right hon. Friend to give sympathetic consideration to the creation of a constitutional court made up of four senior judges from Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland?
Mr. Dewar:
There have been a number of arguments for a constitutional court, and I am sure that many people will continue to support that case. If it were to come to pass, it would be for the future. I do not think that it is a short-term option. Here we have some practical solutions to any dispute resolution that is required, ending with arbitration in the judicial committee of the Privy Council. That has been carefully thought out and it will serve well for the purpose.
Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills):
Whatever this set of proposals does, it can hardly be argued that it will strengthen the United Kingdom, because surely the proposals strike at the most important principle of this country of ours--the equality of our votes. The proposals mean that the value of our vote will be different depending on where we live. Therefore, what we can expect to achieve by our vote is different. This involves a fundamental principle of democratic government for the Union, and the Labour Government are setting it aside. Many British citizens, such as I, will be outraged at the thought that my vote is diminished depending on where I live. It will now be different as to Wales, as to England and as to Scotland, and that principle will cause great difficulty for this proposal.
Mr. Dewar:
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is outraged. I hope that I may be able to tell him to look at the matter more reasonably, even if we continue to disagree in the future. There will be no classes of parliamentarians here. [Hon. Members: "Yes, there will."] No, votes will not have different values. I say again that, if the hon. Gentleman believes in the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, he will see that what we propose is perfectly fair and sensible. I want the United Kingdom to wear well. I do not accuse the hon. Gentleman, although I might have made the point to one of his predecessors, over the fact that one of the difficulties in recent times has been the insensitivity of much of the government of this country. For example, I remember in particular the poll tax as one outstanding example of that.
Mrs. Maria Fyfe (Glasgow, Maryhill):
I have already welcomed the plans, and I welcome them even more when I see the annoyance of Conservative Members, who imposed the poll tax on Scotland.
May I take this opportunity to welcome my right hon. Friend's remarks about Labour's plans to achieve gender equality in the Scottish Parliament? Does he recall how that was dismissed out of hand 10 years ago as an improbable and unacceptable scheme, and now it is the prevailing orthodoxy in the Labour party? I look forward to other parties coming in behind us and realising that, in the 21st century, women will be equal, whether they like it or not.
Mr. Dewar:
I hope that the women do like it.
I thank my hon. Friend for her words. I deliberately put in a passage about that matter in my statement. It is, of course, the business of political parties and not of statute, but I hope that there will be great changes in that respect, as, to be fair to the House, there were at the last election.
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst):
How does the Secretary of State explain the grotesque over- representation that he proposes for the Scottish Parliament, bearing in mind the fact that, in comparison with the 129 members that he is apparently suggesting, his party proposes that a new London strategic authority should have only 24 to 30 members--and remembering that the population of London is bigger than that of Scotland? On the basis even of the historical Westminster representation, he proposes at least twice as many members as has been justified in the past. Will he give an undertaking that Governments will be able constantly to review the subventions from the English taxpayer to Scotland, bearing in mind the extravagance of the representation that he proposes?
Mr. Dewar:
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not take it amiss if I say that that is a small point from a small mind. To be fair, if we consider the great issues that are involved in this argument, however much I disagree with some of the points that have been made, they are substantial constitutional points. It seems that his point is of little moment, but I make it clear that we want a Parliament that will scrutinise effectively the legislation that it is passing and will be much more accessible and open to the public in Scotland than Parliament has traditionally been. I hope as well that we may even, if they can gather enough votes, see a few Conservatives among its number.
Mr. John McAllion (Dundee, East):
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in the past century, no fewer than eight British Prime Ministers have at one time or another promised home rule for Scotland, without any one of them ever delivering on that promise? Therefore, like cats, British Prime Ministers are now on their ninth and last life, and they are aware of that.
I applaud and warmly welcome my right hon. Friend's statement, which at last begins to redeem the pledges to Scotland over the past century. I urge Scottish Members, wherever they sit in the House, on what is an historic day for our country, not to strike a sour note, but to come together and work together for the return of Scotland's Parliament to Scotland. At long last, our future is back in our own hands. If we fail now, it will be our own fault. Let us not fail. Let us carry the referendum and ensure that the future is Scottish.
Mr. Dewar:
I know that my hon. Friend will act as he speaks, and I am grateful for that.
Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry):
Is the right hon. Gentleman not remiss in not pointing out that the only party in the House that has direct practical experience of devolved government and its operation is the Ulster Unionist party? Is he aware that we know that the Scottish Parliament and the Westminster Parliament must work closely together to strengthen and to maintain the Union because, inevitably, the politics of Scotland, like the politics of Northern Ireland, will be increasingly
Mr. Dewar:
I respect the hon. Gentleman's views, but they are understandably coloured by his deep involvement in the politics of his part of the United Kingdom. I do not accept his basic contention. The one thing that I want to avoid, and the one thing that the reform option helps to avoid, is the polarisation of politics into two choices at the extreme. That is exactly why reform is necessary and why better government is good for us all.
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