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Mr. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk, West): Although I warmly welcome the historic transfer of power from this House to the people of Scotland, can we take it that the principle of the sovereignty of the Scottish people means that the White Paper should not be seen as something handed down from on high on tablets of stone? I hope that the relationship between the Scottish and Westminster Parliaments will be dynamic rather than static and that the dynamics may lead to the transfer of even more power to the Scottish Parliament, if that is what the people of Scotland want.
Mr. Dewar: My hon. Friend's views are well known and all I can say is that this package is meant to be stable and enduring--I think that it will be. Of course, anyone is entitled to argue for political change at any time and in any way that they think is right. In about 1975, I gave up trying to persuade my hon. Friend that I was right and he was wrong. He is a man well known for going his own way. I am sure that, whatever he thinks, he will agree that this is a scheme of great promise, hope and potential. At least we can agree on that.
Mr. Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife): The right hon. Gentleman allowed himself a moment of sentiment when he told us how long he had campaigned for a Scottish Parliament. I remind him that I first heard him make that case in 1960, and he therefore deserves congratulations for his perseverance. Does he share my curiosity at the fact that some of those who were most vocal in their support for the declaration of Perth by the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup(Sir E. Heath) are now so vociferous in their opposition to these proposals?
Mr. Dewar: I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman. I suppose I qualify as a long-distance runner in the political sense. I do remember those periods, and I remember our former colleagues, Malcolm Rifkind and Alick Buchanan-Smith--there is an honourable tradition.
On the record of the right hon. Member for Devizes, I would not try to deny the right of people to change their minds, but the significance of the fact that he once espoused devolution enthusiastically is that it puts a little bit of a question mark against the extreme view that he sometimes espouses now, which is that this is an unthinkable piece of chaos that could never possibly work. That was not his view in those days, and, in my opinion, it is not a credible or sensible view. I do not
expect him to go back to what he once believed, but he should look at his position and his credibility in the light of the beliefs that he once held.
Mr. Ernie Ross (Dundee, West):
I congratulate my right hon. Friend, his Front-Bench team and the civil servants on the speed with which they have moved to bring this proposal--one of Labour's major promises to the people of Scotland--to the House. Will my right hon. Friend join me in warning Conservative Members that the people of Scotland are watching this statement and will be listening to the comments made? Very shortly, whether it likes it or not, the Conservative party will have to compete with all the other parties in the House for places in the Scottish Parliament. Unless it changes its mind fairly rapidly, there are liable to be as many Conservatives there as there are here.
Mr. Dewar:
I noticed in The Herald today an article by a prominent Conservative, Mr. Brian Meek, in which he made it clear that he longed for the day when there would be a Scottish Parliament. He felt that his failure to join the Scottish Constitutional Convention had been one of the great political mistakes of his life, and he warned Conservatives that association with the no, no campaign would be a great mistake. He remarked, rather pithily, that they have backed enough losers this year to be getting on with.
Mr. William Cash (Stone):
The White Paper states clearly that the Scottish Parliament and Executive will be responsible for devolved functions, including home affairs. Will he accept that the issue of home affairs comes within the pillars of the Maastricht treaty? Having regard to the fact that the White Paper also says that the Scottish Executive will have an opportunity to
Mr. Dewar:
I should be the last person to tackle the hon. Gentleman on European matters, because I might never emerge from the morass. We envisage that Scotland, the Scottish Parliament and, in particular, the Scottish Executive will be part of the process of consultation and decision making. No doubt a United Kingdom delegation will meet, and a United Kingdom line will emerge. That delegation will vote the agreed United Kingdom line. The hon. Gentleman is pursuing a total non-event with vigour--but that is the nature of the beast, I fear.
Mr. George Galloway (Glasgow, Kelvin):
Notwithstanding the slightly demented braying from some of the Bourbons on the Conservative Benches, does my right hon. Friend accept that this is a great day for Scotland? Somewhere beyond the rafters, the whole host of heroes who, throughout this century, have stood and fought for home rule for Scotland--from Keir Hardie, the founder of the Scottish Labour party, through Tom
On the subject of sensitivity and taxes, does my right hon. Friend accept that the greatest recruiting sergeant for the break-up of the United Kingdom has been 18 years of Thatcherite governments rammed down the throats of the people of Scotland--in no case more grotesquely than through the implementation of the poll tax, a whole year before it was implemented in England, on a people who not only never voted for it, but were never even invited to vote for it in the Tory election manifesto of 1983?
Mr. Dewar:
I certainly recognise my hon. Friend's point about the experiences of recent years under another Government. I am a little nervous about my place in history as he described. I saw the other day, in a well-known Scottish newspaper, a picture that I instantly and cleverly identified as myself, under which appeared the caption, "A modern Robert the Bruce". I have to confess that I took to my bed for the rest of the day.
Mr. Jonathan Sayeed (Mid-Bedfordshire):
The average size of a Greater London parliamentary constituency is 67,000 electors. That of a Glasgow seat is fewer than 52,000. The White Paper does not do anything about that anti-English bias for the next general election or the general election thereafter. I recognise that it is in the interests of the Labour party to delay change, but the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are now members of a Government who have a higher duty--that of fairness to all the United Kingdom, including England. Why has he not introduced plans to remedy that constitutional injustice in time for the next general election?
Mr. Dewar:
The hon. Gentleman has obviously given a great deal of thought to the matter, so he will have considered the practicalities. He, as a democrat and a careful Member of the House, will want the proper processes of consultation and appeal in place. He will then see exactly what the timetable is. First, there is a requirement for primary legislation to make the proposal possible. Then, there needs to be the proper and due processes. We will follow them, but we will not unduly delay.
It is, perhaps, of some importance that the hon. Gentleman is a London Member. I congratulate him on his party's decision to endorse a London government and an elected mayor for London. Perhaps he should consider why, if that is good, it should not also be good to have an elected authority in Scotland.
Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase):
This has been described as a great day for Scotland. As an English Member and a Unionist, I should like to say that it is a great day for the Union, too. Scotland has had the capacity to break the Union. It would have been possible to come forward with proposals that threatened the Union. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on making sure that his proposals do not threaten the Union. Will he now bend his considerable energies to trying to persuade the Conservatives that the choice is between preserving the Union with the White Paper or breaking it with them?
Mr. Dewar:
I know that my hon. Friend has spent a great deal of time looking at constitutional systems, and
Mr. Malcolm Bruce (Gordon):
The Secretary of State was right to point out that those who seek to defend the Union have a responsibility to explain how the demand for reform should be met. They have not done so.
"participate in relevant meetings"
and
"in appropriate cases could speak for the United Kingdom",
will the Scottish Ministers be entitled to vote on those matters that fall within the devolved functions of home affairs within the third pillar? If they are not allowed to do so, will the right hon. Gentleman accept that they will be no more than puppets of the Secretary of State?
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