House of Commons
Friday 25 July 1997
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker in the Chair]
Welsh Assembly
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Jon Owen Jones.]
9.35 am
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ron Davies): I very much welcome this opportunity to open the debate on the Government's proposals for Welsh devolution, as outlined in our White Paper published earlier this week, "A Voice for Wales". I trust that hon. Members have now had an opportunity to read it, so I do not intend to take up the time of the House either by summarising our detailed proposals or by repeating the general points that I made last Tuesday. There are, however, some very important issues with which I want to deal as an introduction to the debate.
This is a new Government, who have an agenda for change. At the general election, we promised the electorate a new approach to government and we put constitutional change at the heart of our programme. We did so because we believed that the excessive over-centralisation of the British state, after 18 years of rule by the Conservative party, had led to bad government and a weakened democracy. It has produced sleaze and incompetence in equal measure, and damaged the social fabric of our country.
We want to make a fresh start. We are committed to decentralising power and to extending the rights of individuals, rather than constraining them. We want to modernise procedures in this House and reform the composition of the House of Lords. The country voted for change on 1 May. We promised to modernise our democracy, and we will deliver on our promises.
Devolution to Wales is, of course, nothing new. Throughout this century there has been a developing programme of administrative devolution, which was reinforced by the establishment of the Welsh Office in the 1960s. It is interesting to note that the Conservative party opposed each significant stage of devolution, as well as the creation of bodies such as the Welsh Development Agency. To its credit, however, the Tory party has realised its errors, and is now reconciled to the process of administrative devolution. Indeed, by its actions over the years since 1979, it has in part accelerated the process--but it still seems to have difficulty with the concept of democracy.
Mr. Piers Merchant (Beckenham):
The right hon. Gentleman said that the Conservative party had opposed
Mr. Davies:
That is a matter of fact. No one can dispute that the 1979 referendum produced a no vote. However, it is not a novel idea that people should change their minds, especially when they lose elections. I would have thought that that message is one that the Conservative party would take to heart. The circumstances of this country have profoundly changed since 1979, and it is therefore perfectly reasonable that we should now ask the people again.
As Secretary of State, I have sweeping powers, and a budget of some £7 billion. So did my immediate predecessors. Devolution allows for variations of policy. Indeed, devolution is there precisely to allow variations of policy to reflect local circumstances, local priorities and local aspirations.
However, my immediate predecessors exercised their powers to suit their own interests and ideologies--for example, the restrictions on the budget of the WDA; the restriction on the promotion of Welsh economic interests in Europe; the assault on the budget of the Countryside Council for Wales; the forced council tax increases; the nursery voucher scheme; grant-maintained schools; the popular schools initiative; and the appointment of cronies to quangos--none of which would have happened under a democratic form of devolution.
The right hon. Members for Wokingham(Mr. Redwood) and for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), and the former Members David Hunt and Peter Walker, used the Welsh Office to promote themselves, not the best interests of Wales.
The existing constitutional arrangements allow us as Welsh Members neither to take the decisions ourselves nor to challenge the decision makers. It is a myth to claim that the right hon. Members for Wokingham and for Richmond, Yorks were held accountable in this Parliament for their actions in Wales.
We propose to legitimise that undemocratic and unaccountable regime with a new democracy, with an Assembly directly elected by and answerable to the people of Wales, sensitive to Welsh needs as expressed through the ballot box rather than to an alien ideology expressed through an over-centralised Government with an attendant flotilla of quangos. There has long been scope for Wales to do its own thing, but we have seen where that can lead when that desire for diversity is not in tune with local values.
I shall put our Assembly proposals in the overall context of the governance of the United Kingdom. Wales will remain an integral part of the United Kingdom. Parliament will make primary legislation for Wales. The Secretary of State will remain a member of the Cabinet, and Welsh Members will be in the House of Commons, in full force. The Assembly will be able to make its views known and contribute effectively to public debate as well. These proposals add to Wales's opportunities to gain a hearing in the United Kingdom, not reduce them. The charge that Wales will be marginalised or sidelined is simply wrong.
The fact that the Secretary of State for Wales will no longer have to make decisions on important but essentially local issues, such as planning matters,
appointments and road schemes, will free him or her to make a more effective contribution on behalf of Wales at a strategic level.
Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay):
Is it not true that Welsh Members were elected to make decisions about housing and education, for example? If the Government's proposals were to go through, those elected to this place to represent Wales would be marginalised, in the sense that they would no longer have a say when it came to vital decisions on housing and education, which the Welsh people sent them to Westminster to decide upon.
Mr. Davies:
In part, the theory may be correct that Welsh Members are elected to take decisions on matters such as housing. Our experience over the past two decades, however, is that we, Welsh Members, do not take such decisions, and that is the problem. Decisions relating to the administration of housing, economic development, education and the health service in Wales are not taken by Welsh Members.
Primary legislation passes through the House, and we are involved in that legislative process. That is true of the past, in the sense that we were opposing proposed legislation. Administration and detailed application of policies in Wales, however, has never been carried out in accordance with the direct wishes of the people of Wales.
I shall give the House what I consider to be the best and clearest example, which is nursery vouchers. The voucher scheme was imposed on Wales. There was no public support for it in Wales. We knew that it would be wasteful, divisive and bureaucratic. It was opposed by 32 out of 38 Welsh Members and by every local authority in Wales.
There were petitions and letters in their thousands--I understand nearly 5,000--in opposition to the scheme. There was no support for it but it was introduced. It was forced on us in Wales, and it was wasteful, expensive and bureaucratic. There was enormous relief when--it was one of the first actions of the incoming Labour Government--we were able to get rid of the scheme.
Mr. Davies:
I know that many hon. Members wish to contribute to the debate. I want to make my remarks as brief as possible, but I have a case to put to the House. It would not help the debate if, at this stage, the House were detracted from the main principles that I want to develop.
Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda):
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Davies:
I have taken two interventions from Opposition Members, so I shall gladly take an intervention now from my hon. Friend, who I know will
Mr. Rogers:
My right hon. Friend has said several times that he wants to have a balanced view. Does he accept that every Labour authority in England--
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow):
And in Scotland.
Mr. Rogers:
--and in Scotland--opposed nursery vouchers, and that opposition to the scheme was not a Welsh phenomenon?
Mr. Davies:
As I have said, 32 out of 38 Welsh Members opposed the scheme. We had all the local authorities behind us. The scheme was completely out of keeping with the pattern of nursery provision in Wales, which is different from that in England. The voucher scheme was especially ill suited to our needs in Wales. That is the point that I was making.
I am proud to be the first Labour Secretary of State for Wales for 18 years. I know full well the value to Wales of my seat at the Cabinet table, and am pleased to be able to reiterate to the House that, under our proposals, there is a clear and continuing role for the Secretary of State for Wales. The voice and influence of Wales will continue to be heard in Cabinet and in Parliament, and all the more strongly for being informed by the work and deliberations of the Assembly.
Costs will, of course, be incurred, and--in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West(Mr. Williams)--I have placed details of these costs in the Library. I felt that it was a proper thing to do, so that the argument could be informed today on the basis of fact rather than unfounded speculation.
We have no plans for a new Assembly building. We are considering a number of alternative existing buildings, and will work to make the most effective use possible of those available buildings. The median-range estimate for running costs is £17.5 million, and within this, and for estimating purposes only, is provision for salaries for full-time members.
The Conservative party prefers the quango system. Under its system, some quango bosses receive £35,000 a year for two days a week. The Government prefer the democratic system, and the salaries of Assembly persons will be properly and independently assessed by the Senior Salaries Review Board.
The Assembly is not only about costs--it is about opportunities and progress as well. I am confident that more accountable, and therefore more responsible public bodies can also be more cost-effective. The costs of the Assembly have also to be assessed in the context of the overall impact of the Assembly on the Welsh economy. Cardiff business school estimates that about 500 new jobs will be created directly as a result of the Assembly. More importantly, in the longer term there will be great benefit for Welsh identity and for Welsh industry and commerce, stemming from a confident Wales with its own strong will.
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