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Mr. Davies: Our general approach has two elements. First, the Assembly will exist to create a partnership with local government not only in respect of health but in respect of all aspects of social provision, including economic development, housing, environmental matters and so on. Health is certainly an important part of that. Secondly, we shall empower the Assembly to do things it believes are necessary to improve the democratic working of Wales in relation to the quango state.
I said earlier that, in relation to the health authorities, for example, the Assembly will be empowered to reallocate responsibilities within the statutory framework. We have already said that there will be a reconfiguration and a reduction in the number of trusts. Central to that is our determination to ensure that local authorities are represented in trusts. So the answer to my hon. Friend's question is yes.
I am sure that my hon. Friend will be interested to know that the Welsh Local Government Association issued a statement yesterday, in which it said:
The new relationship will be in stark contrast to the past 18 years, when the views and potential contribution of local government in Wales was all too often overlooked. The relationship will be a dynamic one, as the Assembly will be expected to promote and foster local government. It will also be expected to leave local decisions to local people and concentrate its efforts on the broader policy framework--one within which local government can do business effectively and be held properly to account by local people for their success or otherwise in achieving publicly declared standards of service and value for money.
The Assembly will be required to take account of local government interests when overseeing the development of public bodies in Wales. Councils will be given a greater say in the running of quangos which can show that they are capable of adding real value to the way in which services are delivered. The restructuring of Tai Cymru, for example, and the extra responsibilities that local government will have for promoting housing strategies shows what can be done.
The Assembly will be given the power to transfer quango functions to local government, and the Welsh Local Government Association will be given every opportunity to highlight the case for devolution from Cardiff to our local communities across the full range of economic and social policy.
In terms of paying for local services, the Assembly will assume all my current responsibilities for local government finance. Therefore, it will provide revenue support to local councils and capital spending approvals. However, as the entire local government finance system in England and Wales will be subject to a comprehensive spending review, details of the Assembly's role in areas such as council tax, business rates and revenue support will depend on the outcome of that study and any related further primary legislation passed by this House.
Whatever the result, the Assembly's approach will be heavily influenced by its general responsibility to promote and foster local government in Wales, and it will be held to account for its performance in so doing by the ballot box. The Assembly will not have the power to take existing functions from local government. Local government has its own legislative base, and that can be changed only by further primary legislation in this House. I am delighted that the Welsh Local Government Association has been so positive and enthusiastic in its support for our proposals.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon):
Could the Secretary of State address the question that I raised a few days ago about Europe and representation in it? He did not deal with that in detail in his speech. Page 22 of the White Paper states:
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I have asked for reasonably short interventions, but the hon. Gentleman's intervention is developing into a minor speech. Will he come to the point quickly?
Mr. Wigley:
I am about to conclude. Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Scotland said:
Mr. Davies:
I could not find the paragraph to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I shall ask the Under-
We have made it clear that the Assembly will be empowered to ensure that the Welsh voice is heard directly in delegations to Europe. I have given the assurance that Scotland and Wales will have an equivalent relationship with Europe. The executive members of the Welsh Assembly will be able to be part of those delegations. I shall ask my hon. Friend to clarify that in winding up.
Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes):
The more I listen to the Secretary of State speaking about his proposals, the more I am reminded of Del boy in "Only Fools and Horses" trying to sell his latest doubtful wares. Behind the sales patter, there is the faint but somewhat charming impression that he does not really believe his sales pitch, and that he does not expect any of us to believe it, either.
I also have the feeling that, inside the new Labour Ron, there is a more real Ron trying to get out--the Ron who tells things as they are, the Ron of 1979, who voted against devolution and who called proposals for Scottish tax-raising powers "economic illiteracy". It has been rather painful to watch the old Ron trying unsuccessfully to get out, but I urge him to keep trying, to be true to his beliefs, and to turn his back on what is essentially a constitutional mess that will sideline Wales and threaten this United Kingdom.
Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West):
The right hon. Gentleman had another painful day yesterday, when he heard the triumphant welcome by Scots Members from all parties except one for the proposals. He has also heard the proposals for an elected body for London, which I understand his party supports, and calls about East Anglia, the north-west of England and the north-east of England. If a great Parliament is to be set up in Scotland and if there are to be strong bodies throughout England, why on earth should Wales be left behind?
Mr. Ancram:
The hon. Gentleman should check on our policy on London. We back the concept of an elected mayor, but we do not back the concept of a strategic authority. He should not necessarily take as gospel what he hears from his Prime Minister at the Dispatch Box, because frequently it is not. He makes an interesting point, and it is one that I was about to deal with. The Secretary
"The leaders of councils representing all political groups in Wales said the White Paper's approach to democratising the quangos is very positive."
The Welsh Local Government Association's leader, Harry Jones--this relates directly to the point that my hon. Friend raised--said:
"The White Paper sets out a broad framework which we fully endorse. We do not share the criticism being levelled at Ron Davies' decisions about the quangos whose function will be determined by the Assembly. Once the Assembly is in place we look forward to further transfer of functions from the quangos to local government. We look forward to working closely with the Secretary of State in drafting the Bill for the Assembly under the new partnership approach we have established with the Welsh Office under its new regime."
I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda will be delighted at the letter that I received yesterday from the leader of Rhondda Cynon Taff authority. He concluded:
"The White Paper offers the prospect of a positive partnership between local government and the Assembly and I am very pleased therefore to welcome its publication and endorse its contents."
It is therefore the case that we will develop the partnership to which my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda refers.
"The Secretary of State for Wales may participate in relevant meetings with the Council of Ministers and, where appropriate, represent the United Kingdom on relevant items."
On Tuesday, the Secretary of State said that Wales would not be disadvantaged in representation in Europe compared with a Scottish Parliament and Ministers. Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Scotland said that Ministers of the Scottish Executive--
"Ministers in the Scottish Executive will have an opportunity to participate . . . and in appropriate cases could speak for the United Kingdom."--[Official Report, 24 July 1997; Vol.298, c.1043.]
If there is a Conservative Secretary of State and a non-Conservative Assembly, how on earth can the interests of Wales be safeguarded unless the Assembly itself can represent Wales in the Council of Ministers?
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