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Mr. Davies: The reason why I am not proposing that is because it is not the policy on which I was elected. The
Labour party fought the election with a clear prescription to introduce devolution to Wales, and that is what I am now trying to deliver.
On the construction of the economic powerhouse, it was my view--I firmly hold to this--that, if we had said that the power to restructure the quangos would go to the Assembly, and that that power would not be exercised for two and a half or three years, there would be a period of uncertainty during which the work of the WDA, the Land Authority and the DBRW would be hampered by such insecurity. I wanted to prevent that, and to create the powerhouse, ensuring that it had the supporting structure of the training and enterprise councils and so on, so that the work of economic development could proceed. The other matters are properly left to the Assembly.
Mr. Williams:
I do not disagree with my right hon. Friend's intention at all. I am just asking why it should be so limited. Why does not he go ahead and do it all himself? Then we would not need to create a permanent 60-member Assembly to do something that he could do in the next 18 months by simple legislation and administrative action.
Mr. Williams:
I am sorry, but I am telling you that your policy is wrong. That is what debate is about--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. Members on the Treasury Bench will have time to wind up at the end of the debate. There is little point in responding to all the questions and taking time away from Back Benchers who are very anxious to contribute to the debate.
Mr. Williams:
One is bound to ask why, if it is so impossible to deal with matters without an Assembly, my right hon. Friend is saying that our right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, for example, will be unable to achieve many similar objectives in England because he will not have an Assembly. Is he saying that his colleagues are failing in their duties?
I am trying to cut my comments short. I was interested in a written answer a week last Wednesday, in which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State talked about launching his crusade. He said:
Mr. Richard Livsey (Brecon and Radnorshire):
I want to make a much more positive speech than did the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams). I have
The White Paper is entitled "A Voice for Wales"; I want to address what kind of voice that should be.I cannot pretend, as a Liberal Democrat, to be entirely in agreement with the total thrust of Government policy, but I think that in this case it brings a very worthy element of democracy to Wales. It is incredible, in view of the democratic deficit in Wales, that the official Opposition question the need for an Assembly.
Why does Wales need an Assembly? Since 1951, the Conservatives have ruled in Wales for 35 years and Labour for 11, yet no Conservative majority has been achieved in Wales in that time--far from it. The Conservatives had a high point in 1979, when 13 Conservative Members were elected to Westminster from Welsh constituencies. Wales has never voted Tory in the past 100 years, yet it has been ruled by them for most of that time. Careful consideration of the arithmetic shows that, between 1897 and 1997, the Tories have been in power for 51 years, Labour for 21, Liberals for 10 and coalitions for 18. In all that time, the Welsh electorate has not voted Conservative.
We have had to stomach policies to which we would never subscribe, and that has culminated in the past18 years in which we have been marginalised. Four Secretaries of State were imposed on us from English constituencies, like governors of a colony. The 1,400 appointees to some 84 quangos have mainly been Conservative party members. We have been ruled by the Tory party in exile.
Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield):
The part of the country that I represent has never returned a Labour Member and has had to experience periods of Labour government. If we live in a Union and believe in a United Kingdom, why should that be of concern?
Mr. Livsey:
I do not believe that the White Paper is a threat to the Union, and when England gets regional government, those problems will be addressed. The quangos have spent £2.5 billion in an act of political privilege that must be banished. I agree with those who say that the bonfire of the quangos is not big enough, but at least it is a start.
Wales has been ruled by a party that does not practise democracy itself. The Tory party is only now starting to think about giving its members one person, one vote to elect its leader. Only now, in 1997, is the Tory party beginning to practise democracy, yet it lectures us about how Wales should be ruled. We know better, and we have a far better track record of democracy in Wales.
Wales has a great need for democracy. We have 22 local authorities with 1,200 members elected through the ballot box, which is the best way to achieve democracy. The Assembly will extend that. In the 1997 election, not one Conservative was elected to Westminster from Wales. That was the logical outcome of the points that I have made so far.
The Liberal Democrats have no quarrel with the principle of an Assembly, but what should we measure the White Paper's proposals against? An Assembly is
necessary, but the degree of devolution is a matter for debate. We need a debate about the functions of the Assembly, the number of seats it will have and its method of election.
We need to discuss, for example, the degree of proportional representation. We must promote political and geographical inclusiveness, including representation for individual political parties. Gender is also important; the role of women should be given its proper priority in any Welsh Assembly. We must ensure that the electoral system helps to achieve those objectives, and ask how they compare with the model in the White Paper.
Labour's Welsh Assembly will control the Welsh Office budget of £7 billion, but it will not be able to make primary legislation or vary taxes. The Liberal Democrats would prefer that it had powers to do both. Indeed, even the former Welsh Office Minister, Sir Wyn Roberts, has said that he likes the idea of a power to vary taxes, because Wales could then have lower taxes and become a tax haven. We should consider that advantage of tax-varying powers, but they are not on offer in the White Paper.
The legislation presaged in the White Paper would bring greater accountability to Wales, and we welcome that. The Welsh Assembly will have secondary legislation powers, but they could be stronger. No doubt in time devolution will strengthen those powers. The functions of the Assembly will reflect those of the Welsh Office, including powers over education. The Secretary of State mentioned nursery vouchers. Most Welsh local authorities had more than 90 per cent. of their children in nursery education when nursery vouchers were forced on us. That is why they were nonsense. We need to discuss powers over transport, agriculture, the environment and industry.
I have always been intrigued by the fact that powers over transport in Wales, especially the railways, have been exercised by the Secretary of State for Transport.I hope that the Minister will explain that when he sums up. I have always felt frustrated that we have not been able to influence transport policy sufficiently and I hope that the Minister will explain the powers that the Welsh Assembly will have over transport.
It is logical that powers over foreign affairs, macro-economics, defence, taxation and social security should remain at Westminster. Primary legislation powers will also, for the moment, remain at Westminster.I hesitate to raise the issues of the police and broadcasting. I do not understand why broadcasting is outside the remit of the Welsh Assembly, because there is a strong case for bringing it in. We want strong local government, and the Secretary of State has emphasised that he will not take powers from local government. He will be held to account for that statement in future years, and I trust that he means what he says and that local government will be strengthened by the transfer of powers from the quangos.
Local government has had a rough time in recent years, and many able people have not thought it worth their while to stand for election to local government. Local councillors have been like eunuchs, who were mentioned by the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) in a different context, because the Conservatives took so many powers from local councils.
Another matter I wish to address is the number of seats in the Assembly. We know that the Labour party started out with a model of 80 seats for the Assembly, but that
figure has now been whittled down to 60, which does not enable a good enough system of proportional representation to be put in place. That will be the subject of substantial debate later on, when we achieve a yes vote.
There is a case for having more seats elected by PR: it has been calculated that the correct ratio of seats would be 40 elected directly to 35 elected by PR. That would give the Assembly much better proportionality in terms of geography, political party and gender. If the inclusiveness that has been spoken of is not merely rhetoric, but sincerely meant, the principle would be better served by having more seats in the Assembly.
The reception of the White Paper in Wales has been interesting. It provides much food for thought and, as its implications are digested, there is a gathering enthusiasm for it. However, recognition of the issue of rural Wales is important. After the announcement of the economic powerhouse, with the demise of the Development Board for Rural Wales, there was a feeling of great unease in mid-Wales. Welsh Office Ministers would be well advised to continue doing what the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), started to do in his instructions and address to the staff of the DBRW at the Royal Welsh show in my constituency this week. He has started well, and I am sure that he will take on board the DBRW's concerns and translate them into positive action to ensure that rural Wales is properly administered in terms of economic development. I know that he wants to do that, but a great deal of work is required.
"I shall play a vigorous part in securing a yes vote, along with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, other Cabinet colleagues and hon. Members representing constituencies all over the United Kingdom".--[Official Report, 16 July 1997; Vol. 298, c. 378.]
From him of all people, I thought that that was rather a strange proposition. An improbable picture crossed my mind of St. Ron, his white gown flowing, brandishing his manifesto above his head, striding across the Severn bridge backed by a horde of English Members of Parliament. Once again, he is taking the English to Wales to tell us Welsh what is good for us.
11.8 am
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