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Mr. Martin Caton (Gower): The hon. Gentleman surely knows better than anyone that the Development Board for Rural Wales has not served all of rural Wales, but only mid-Wales. As an observer of its work, I have been impressed, but also jealous that we in rural areas not covered by the DBRW did not benefit from that service. It is to be hoped that the new powerhouse agency, with its rural function, will ensure that we get the same quality of service as other rural parts of Wales.
Mr. Livsey: I am pleased to hear the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) supporting the ideas and principles of the DBRW. Sadly that was not the historical view of representatives of Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire and
some of the counties of north Wales when the DBRW was formed. They did not want to join it, but the DBRW's track record proves that it has exercised its powers successfully, and that is a reason for reform. The DBRW was pushed by past Liberal and Labour Members of Parliament: Jim Griffiths, the first Secretary of State for Wales, was very keen, as was Cledwyn Hughes, another Secretary of State for Wales, along with Emlyn Hooson, Peter Garbett Edwards of the board and, of course, Emrys Roberts.
We must not forget that the DBRW was brought into being because of 100 years of depopulation in rural Wales, which was a serious problem. Five local authorities in central Wales agreed, so the DBRW was formed. The Highlands and Islands development board in Scotland was founded for similar reasons. I do not know what is to happen in Scotland but, given that the Highlands and Islands development board area has objective 1 status, I would guess that it will remain. In terms of policy and recognition--especially within the European Union--that has a kick back to Wales.
The whole topic needs careful consideration. I do not want a rural committee of the Welsh Assembly to be set up only to find that many of the decisions that it should address have been set in concrete before it can debate them. That is a somewhat worrying prospect.
Youth depopulation in rural Wales continues to be a problem. In many of the rural counties, elderly people over the age of 65 constitute 22 per cent. to 25 per cent. of the population. The new problem in rural Wales is one of population exchange; young people leave and older people come in, resulting in an imbalance of economically active people. That needs to be addressed.
In many parts of rural Wales, up to 25 per cent. of the population are involved in agriculture, either directly or indirectly. Reform of the common agricultural policy will therefore be a major issue over the next five years. In the past 10 days, the President of the European Commission, Jacques Santer, has issued an agenda 2000 paper that contains serious problems for areas such as rural Wales.
Mr. Denzil Davies (Llanelli):
Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams), I hope that, now that the White Paper has been published, and in the short time available between now and the referendum, we can have a reasonably balanced debate. Until now, the debate outside this place has been mainly characterised by verbal abuse, and I am sorry to say that most of that abuse has come from members of what is described as the yes campaign.
The case for an Assembly and for the White Paper is, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, a case for better democracy in the governance of Wales. My right hon. Friend went a bit far when he implied that democracy and cronyism do not sometimes lie together. A long time ago, I spent two years at the university of Chicago, where Mayor Daley--a true Democrat--was in charge of that great city. He would not have subscribed to my right hon. Friend's view. It is possible to say also that Tammany hall was a product of democracy.
The argument is, as it was in 1979, for better democracy in the governance of Wales and in fulfilling the functions presently carried out by the Welsh Office and by the quango state. If it stopped there, it would be easy--we are all in favour of democracy--but it does not. There are constitutional consequences, be they good or bad, of having a Welsh Assembly. There are consequences for the position of Wales in Britain which go beyond the arguments about democracy.
It is necessary--I hope that people will do this--to balance improvements in Welsh democracy with the constitutional consequences for Wales. The referendum was lost in 1979 because the Welsh people were not sufficiently convinced of the benefits of democracy when set against their real fears of the consequences for Wales within Britain. These proposals are not so different, although they go further in some respects because of the need for greater democracy.
There will be changes in the relationship between Wales and Britain. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State says that sovereignty will remain in Westminster, and of course it will. He also says that those matters will evolve. Legal sovereignty can remain as a shell while the political realities move ahead, and there are examples in history of that. If we have an Assembly, a new generation of Welsh people will look less to the political institutions of Britain and more towards the new institutions that we are creating in Wales.
My generation is very loyal to our language and culture, but we tend to look towards Britain and its institutions, including this House of Commons. Previous generations did the same, and perhaps the next generation after ours will also do the same but, if we make this change, future generations will look less to Britain and more towards the institutions of Wales. The House of Commons will become less important in the life of Wales--that is the reality. It is not a question of arid legal sovereignty, as the Scottish White Paper shows clearly.
The Scottish White Paper goes further--I accept that--and comes to the conclusion that there should be fewer Scottish Members in this House. That is supposed to address the West Lothian question--although it does not--which does not apply in Wales. It is an attempt to address the point that, once Scottish legislation is taken away, Scottish Members will have less to do in this House. I am not advocating that the number of Welsh Members should be reduced because the Welsh proposals do not go as far as those for Scotland, but this House and its Members will become less important in Wales as a result of the changes. That is a constitutional and practical fact.
The other day, I was successful in acquiring an Adjournment debate on the finances of the Dyfed Powys health authority, to which the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend
(Mr. Griffiths), replied so well--as he always does. I do not want to make a niggling point but, in future, such a debate would not take place here because the Minister would not be accountable--assuming that he was still a Minister, which he probably would not be, although through no fault of his own--for the finances of the Dyfed Powys health authority. Accountability would lie where the money was--at the Welsh Assembly.
I am making a trite observation, but a host of matters--health, education, transport and others--will go from here. We may still have Welsh Questions, but other matters will go to the Assembly, and Wales will look less to us and to the institutions of Britain. There will be a constitutional shift. It may not seem to be a seismic shift, but it is a shift that we have to recognise and either reject or accept, depending on our point of view.
I am sorry to bring the subject of Europe into the debate, but there is a difference with 1979. Europe was not such an issue in 1979. Over the past few years, I have detected that Welsh politicians have looked far more to Europe than they did during the 1979 referendum. Indeed, the Welsh chattering classes--[Interruption.] They do exist, and I could tell the House where they live. I can see some of them when I look around this Chamber. However, I am referring to a different breed of Welsh chattering class, which lives in Wales. The Welsh chattering classes are very keen on Wales in Europe. They write learned articles and books about a new kind of sub-tribe known as "Welsh Europeans". We know where they live, as well.
The Welsh Europeans are a new group--they are not Welsh British. Britain is seen as a declining entity. I see some of my hon. Friends nodding at that. The European factor was not an issue in 1979. The gaze of the Welsh political establishment--and, perhaps, of a minority in Welsh society--has moved away from British institutions and towards Europe. Wales is seen as a European nation, and I shall come to the hon. Member for Caernarfon(Mr. Wigley) and his party in a moment. They believe that, as the British nation is controlled by the 'orrible English, we must look to Europe.
The Welsh-European project, as I like to call it, is not just a project of the hon. Member for Caernarfon and his hon. Friends. If it were so, one would not refer to it, as his party is a fringe group. The project of looking to Europe rather than to Britain has reached even the highest echelons of the Labour party in Wales. Those concerned are still a minority, but a pretty influential one.
We must add to the situation the mirror-image in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament will be more powerful and will look even less to the House of Commons and to Britain. Scotland also will look more towards Europe than Wales will because of its history, its legal system and its connection with Europe.
When we put all those factors together, if we go through with devolution, we shall see that it is a question not of sovereignty, but, if I may use corporate jargon, of a substantial unbundling of the British unitary state--or, as The Guardian now describes it, the "British state". Sovereignty can reside here, and of course it will, but devolution is bound to lead to the unbundling of the present unitary state. We must ask ourselves again, in a reasoned way, whether that is to the benefit of Wales.
The unbundling of the British state does not just mean that Wales will be loosened from England; it means that England will be loosened from Wales. That is not often
mentioned in our debates, but the relationship between Wales and England will change. Mr. Gwynfor Evans, who used to be leader of Plaid Cymru and Member of Parliament for the constituency next to mine, used to say that a federal system was not suitable for Britain. His main reason for saying that was that England was too large, relative to Scotland and Wales, to create a federal system.
I did not often agree with Mr. Evans, whom I respected as a patriot and a very learned man, but I believe that he was right about that. He then argued--I did not agree with this--for a kind of confidence in the European Union, in the days before the European Union, when even Plaid Cymru had decided that it would be in favour of it.
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