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Mr. Rogers: They will not. My right hon. and hon. Friends are responding to the democratic deficit that the Tories created. It is the Tories' fault that we are in this pickle, not ours. At least we are trying to do something about it.
I finish on the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney made. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has thanked me on a couple of occasions for contributing a paper. I have it here. It is called "A Welsh Assembly: Quangos and Local Government". I pay tribute to one person who helped enormously in compiling it. It was done during the election period. It is a fairly reasonable contribution to the debate.
I am sorry that some of the questions that I posed in the paper have not been answered. If my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is prepared to answer some of those questions and to take up the issues that we have brought to him this morning, we can look at the matter again. However, if we are simply to stay as we are, and if all that we are doing this morning and shall do in the next few weeks is going through the motions, I am afraid that I cannot alter my position on the Assembly.
Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke):
On one point the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) can rest assured. Although we may occasionally have fleeting personal regard for him, we have neither intention nor desire to form any alliance with him.
My speech will be brief, because I realise that other hon. Members wish to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall select just two of the themes that suggest
themselves from the White Paper. The first relates to Europe. The second relates to one aspect of the workings of the proposed Assembly.
The White Paper points not only to the Assembly's role in promoting, protecting and furthering the interests of Wales and the Welsh people in the United Kingdom but to its potential in furthering the interests of Wales in the European Union. Notwithstanding what the hon. Members for Ynys Mon (Mr. Jones) and for Swansea, East(Mr. Anderson) said, the latter point is open to question.I understand that it is being questioned.
The relevant paragraphs in the White Paper are 46 to 56 in chapter 3. Those paragraphs are clearly intended to give the impression that the creation of an Assembly will give Wales a stronger voice in Europe, but I submit that, on closer analysis, most of the functions and activities which are listed there would not remotely do that. With two key exceptions, which I shall come to shortly, the functions outlined for the Assembly in respect of Europe fall into two categories.
One category is those functions and activities that already exist and are fulfilled mainly by the Secretary of State, in part by the United Kingdom permanent representation in Brussels and in part by the Wales European Centre--as I understand the activities of that body. We are talking about a transfer of existing powers, not the assumption of greater, new or more intensive powers.
The second category of functions in respect of Europe relates to scrutiny and enforcement of European legislation, and their assumption by the Welsh Assembly will not give a stronger voice to Wales in the European Union. None of those functions remotely amounts to an exciting new dimension of Welsh involvement in the European Union.
There are two key paragraphs on the European dimension--paragraphs 53 and 56. In those paragraphs, the White Paper envisages that the Assembly will administer structural funds and have representation on the Committee of the Regions. In those two paragraphs, the Government's thinking reflects the European Union's vision of a Europe of regions rather than the counter-view of a Europe of sovereign national states.
There is a problem here. Notwithstanding what the hon. Member for Swansea, East in particular said, I find it hard to accept the argument that European regionalism will enhance the nationhood of Wales. It will diminish it: it will relegate Wales to the status of a region. Regionalism is ultimately incompatible with nationhood, and it is intended to be. The stronger argument is that the nationhood of Wales is best protected and promoted within the nation state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and in a Europe of nation states. It is neither protected nor promoted by diluting or risking the integrity and sovereignty of the United Kingdom through devolution and choosing to follow the route of European regionalism.
I can pursue my second theme even more briefly. It arises from a chapter in the White Paper on the Assembly and the Welsh economy, and I do not think that the issues that I am about to raise have yet featured in the debate.
According to the summary on page 11, the Assembly will
Dr. John Marek (Wrexham):
It was an honour to listen to the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Mr. Ruane).
It is a little unfortunate that those hon. Members who have caught your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, have been somewhat critical of the White Paper. That is no fault of yours, but many hon. Members hoping to catch your eye are 100 per cent. behind the White Paper, and will commend it to the Welsh people. I hope that some of them will be able to contribute to the debate.
Negative arguments against change are always appealing. It is easy to say that a proposal will cost a great deal, will produce more bureaucrats and will lead to domination of one part of the Principality by another. Such appealing arguments are easy to understand, but that does not mean that they are right. The White Paper has successfully addressed those arguments, and people who read it will be convinced that change is necessary, and that the way to bring it about is to vote yes on 18 September.
Those of us who wish to do that need to come together. People who want to keep the first-past-the-post voting system use the same old argument: that we know what it is and it is simple, which is easy to say. If people want to change to any form of proportional representation--and there are many--they can argue for this and for that, and it is easy for PR's opponents to decry their arguments. It has happened this morning.
I worry a little about the additional member system. Appointments should be made not by any party secretary sitting in his or her office, but by the membership of a party. If that were the case, there would be no problem, but I am not going to create any problems or to do anything more than simply mention that caveat.
I accept the White Paper's decision to have the 40:20 system, where 40 members are directly elected and 20 are elected by the additional member system. That will be better than all members being directly elected. I implore all people who want change and who want Wales to enter the 21st century alongside other nations, regions and nation regions in Europe to accept the proposals of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales.
There are things that we will need to see in the Bill. At the moment, we have only a White Paper. Details will need to be fleshed out, and I have no doubt that the devil will be in the detail--it is always like that. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will, I am sure, be able to give an indication of his thinking over the next four or five weeks.
Clearly, my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) has made an important point about secondary legislation. It would be possible for a succeeding Conservative Government to put secondary legislation into primary legislation. As it is, any Administration can introduce what is called an enabling Bill, where the primary legislation says little, and it is all done by secondary legislation.
We need to flesh that out and to be absolutely clear--or reasonably clear--what we would regard as permissible for the Welsh Assembly, what would be the norm for this Parliament, and how to resolve any conflicts or differences of opinion that may rise. That does not stop me one inch from saying that this is a good White Paper and that those are details that will need to be thought through before the Bill is published.
My right hon. Friend talked about the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. I read of a little problem about that. Of course, the different colleges of the university of Wales--I speak as someone who was a lecturer in one of those colleges for 18 years--are little quangos themselves. The college principals always argue about academic freedom, but if anyone has got rid of academic freedom, it is those principals.
During my tenure, I did not have necessarily to get research funding or grants, to do this or to do that or to have to teach certain amounts, but that is not so now. By and large, lecturers now have one-year or three-year contracts, and if they do not produce an equivalent amount of grant or so many papers a year, they are out; so we need not take any lessons from the people in the hierarchy of the university. They always argue for keeping their responsibilities and power.
I ask my right hon. Friend to consider the matter in the working party. I would hate a binary divide to be to established in the constitution, where we have higher education on one side and further education on the other. If there is any way of bringing them together and giving that responsibility to the Welsh Assembly, I urge him to consider it seriously. It is an acceptable point; I will say no more than that.
There are worries in north Wales. Last time, north Waleans were worried about the domination by south Wales. The White Paper has overcome that difficulty. It is not two thirds to one third in favour of the south. Of course, a preponderance of people live in the area of the old Glamorgan county council.
"provide leadership in setting a new economic agenda for Wales."
It also states that it will
"develop its policies in partnership with local authorities, industry, further and higher education, Training and Enterprise Councils and the voluntary sector".
The White Paper anticipates the concern that those themes may provoke, and tries to give a reassurance on page 11. It is that the Assembly will
"protect Wales's wealth-creating capacity by assessing and publishing the potential cost to business of any new policy proposals."
I do not find that reassuring. Fear persists, and with good reason, because assessing and publishing the potential cost does not prohibit costly measures from being taken and implemented by the Assembly. There is scope for unwarranted interventionism by the Assembly. Far from its activities being the best way to raise living standards to those enjoyed in the more prosperous parts of the UK and Europe, the White Paper proposals could, if implemented, create a mechanism for unwarranted intervention in the wealth-creating process in Wales.
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