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2.4 pm
Mr. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire): My first comment is one of slight surprise. It has become clear throughout the debate that the constructive opposition to devolution has come not from the official Opposition, but from within the Government. That has contributed positively today, because the useful and serious points about what might concern the Welsh public have been heard in the House. Unfortunately, the official Opposition choose to argue in a way which manifestly contradicts other aspects of their policy positions.
The right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) referred to his concern at a shift from our current constitutional settlement to a different one. That is exactly what will happen, but I do not regard that as a negative. As Liberal Democrats, we have campaigned for exactly this shift for more than a century. We welcome the courage of the Government in coming forward with this proposal. It will not destroy the United Kingdom. One has only to look at the format in the United States of America--the wealthiest nation on earth--which has a state and federal structure to understand that the shift is not necessarily negative.
Secondly, it has been said that devolution will weaken the Union. That is manifestly not the case. Anyone who has worked in a large team in business knows that one increases the effectiveness of that business by delegating to individual team members. Delegation in business is akin to devolution in politics. We must look again at the professional experience and trust ourselves to make sensible decisions.
I wish to refer to some of our concerns. We believe that the proposed electoral system--although an improvement on the first-past-the-post system--remains inadequate. It is not fully proportional, and I am sure that we will return to this issue in the House and outside. I welcome the reassurances that we have had from the Secretary of State about the Development Board for Rural Wales and the transfer of its operations to a new regional development agency, but we want to be absolutely sure that that happens.
We must discuss what secondary legislative power means. The Liberal Democrats support primary legislative powers for the Welsh Assembly, similar to the powers that the Scottish Parliament is likely to obtain. Once again, we expect to make a contribution on that score. As far as the Wokingham question is concerned--the possibility that a future Secretary of State could once again lord it over Wales, even with a Welsh Assembly--we believe that there is some constitutional work to do on that score to obtain a reasonable settlement. That should not deter us from moving forward with devolution.
As Liberal Democrats, we will continue to make a contribution in good faith, believing that our ideas will be considered--and included, to a reasonable extent--by the Government as we move towards the final proposals in the House. Good words about inclusiveness are not the same as good deeds, and we will watch to make sure that the Assembly passes that crucial test of inclusiveness.
Finally, there are the "What ifs?", as in, "What if it doesn't work?" I am glad that the Wright brothers did not think that. I am glad that Nelson Mandela did not say that. We must have the courage of our convictions and simply say, "We will make it work and we will overcome the barriers which prevented us from doing it before." We must not live in a penumbra of self-doubt, wondering whether we have the ability to move forward. This Parliament represents 60 million people and a successful United Kingdom, and it will be more successful if we devolve our powers to those more able to make decisions.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley):
First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Mr. Smith) on his maiden speech. At least his was made in daylight hours--unlike mine, in 1992, which was made at 2 am.I also congratulate our 1997 intake--my hon. Friends the Members for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson) and for New Forest, West
We heard the green-tinted spectacles view from the hon. Members for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig), for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Livsey), for Ynys Mon (Mr. Jones), for Wrexham (Dr. Marek), for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik). We also heard the voice of realism--never mind the voice of Wales--from the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) and the right hon. Membersfor Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and for Swansea, West(Mr. Williams).
Ms Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North)
rose--
Mr. Evans:
The hon. Member for Cynon Valley said that she hopes that there will be a gender balance in the new Assembly. That is only a hope and an aspiration; unless the Labour party loads its list system, it may not happen--and loading the list system for the Assembly will simply give power to the party rather than to the people. She also mentioned the problem over questions to the Executive.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Ms Morgan) must know that the hon. Gentleman does not wish to give way.
Mr. Evans:
I have only 10 minutes, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
If Labour Welsh politicians would table more questions on the Order Paper, they would have more questions called.
In 1979, the Welsh people voted four to one against devolution. There has been no change. If the answer to the question is that we need 60 more politicians and extra civil servants, I worry about the question being asked. The people of Wales want better government, not more government; they certainly do not want more expensive government. We have been able to squeeze out of the Government the fact that, for the first four years, the Welsh Assembly will cost £100 million. Let every Labour politician go back to his or her constituency and say that they want that money spent on a Welsh Assembly rather than more teachers in schools, more nurses in hospitals and more policemen on streets and then listen to what the people of Wales have to say. That is the voice of Wales.
We shall see a turbo-charged county council with Assembly members on turbo-charged salaries. The Secretary of State admits that the Assembly can always be overruled by the Westminster Parliament. The right hon. Member for Swansea, West managed to squeeze that concession out of him. If so, why bother going ahead with an Assembly? It is as if the people of Scotland will have a Parliament with tax-raising powers, yet Wales will be offered something less.
Being a Welshman, I know that Wales can sing. Despite the delights of Wales with Bryn Terfel and the Morriston Orpheus choir, Wales will be turned into the land of talk and each word will be extremely expensive,
with a £100 million start-up. Welsh taxpayers, along with my constituents in Ribble Valley, will help to pick up that tab. That is where the common sense of the Welsh people will come in.
Furthermore, the Assembly is regarded by nationalists and many in Wales as a stepping stone to an independent Wales. We have heard that before from members of Plaid Cymru and other nationalists in Wales. In 1977, Lord Crickhowell said that the Assembly
The right hon. Member for Swansea, West said on Tuesday that this was a constitutional magical mystery tour. I am not sure that he was right. We can picture the Secretary of State with his hands on the wheel of his tired old jalopy, with 11 points on his driving licence for driving without due care and attention and his eyes more on his unwilling, hostile and complaining passengers than on the road ahead. The louder the shouts from his passengers to stop the bus, the harder he pushes his foot down on the accelerator, believing that speeding towards the cliff will allow him to jump the gap in his flawed logic--that it is possible to create the Assembly without giving it any real powers, and more and more powers in the future. It is not a magical mystery tour, because we know exactly where it will end.
What is the point of setting up the Assembly? If it is designed to satisfy the demands of Welsh nationalists, it fails because of its limited powers. If it is designed to safeguard Welsh culture, it is unnecessary because the previous Conservative Government did more to promote the Welsh language and culture than any of their predecessors. If it is designed to promote business in Wales, people need only look at the Conservative Government's record on investment in Wales, especially during the past 12 months when my right hon. Friend the leader of the Opposition was Secretary of State for Wales. The proposal is an ill-thought-out hotch-potch that will cause discontent and nationalist fervour to flourish.
"threatens the unity of Britain by seeking to establish a system that would focus discontent and concentrate it in a form likely to create hostility to this Parliament and the constitutional arrangements themselves".
He was right in 1977 and he is right 20 years later. It is inevitable that, once the Assembly is set up, it will go on a power grab. Unlike the Secretary of State, it will want something real to do. It will grab many powers not only from Westminster, but from local authorities, as the hon. Member for Rhondda pointed out.
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