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Mrs. Betty Williams (Conwy) rose--
Mr. Evans: No. I shall not give way.
We need to know the answer, because the proposal for an Assembly will put the Barnett formula at risk, as we heard from the right hon. Member for Llanelli. It will risk
the over-representation of Members of Parliament from Wales at Westminster, as we heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Shropshire, North and for Faversham and Mid-Kent. It will put at risk the rate support grant to local authorities as the Welsh Assembly tries to take some of the money for itself. It will force up council tax for the Welsh people. They will have to meet the £100 million cost and higher taxes.
Mrs. Williams:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way now?
Deputy Speaker:
Order. It is clear that the hon. Gentleman is not giving way.
Mr. Evans:
Some people will say that the Government's proposals are half-baked. If only they were. They are still in the mixing bowl, congealing. They are being rushed through the House--we have just this one debate today. The Welsh Grand Committee will not examine them. We do not have a Bill to examine, just a White Paper. The people of Wales have eight weeks to study these proposals--over the summer, when many of them will be on holiday. It is a measure of the Government's confidence in their proposals that they are pushing them through with as little open debate as possible. At the same time, they intend to stuff Welsh letter boxes with their White Paper, but no funding will be provided for the other side of the debate.
Mr. Ron Davies:
Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we should make public money available for the yes and the no campaigns?
Mr. Evans:
No. I am suggesting that £700,000 could be saved by not stuffing the White Paper through the door of every household in Wales. After all, it was printed in the Western Mail, so every household could have read it this week.
Why is the referendum in Wales being held a week after the referendum in Scotland? Is it a cynical ploy by the Government, who might think that they have a better chance in Scotland of getting their proposals through? Do they think that, after the referendum in Scotland, they will be able to bounce the Welsh people into voting yes on 18 September? I can tell the Secretary of State now that the Welsh people will not be bounced into voting yes. They will use their common sense on 18 September. They will not be treated as the dessert to the Scottish dog's dinner, and they will be voting no.
If we are being presented with Labour's flagship, I can say only that it is badly holed. I am not surprised, given its motley crew. The members of its crew are steering the ship on to the rocks of common sense.
Our constitution cannot be compared with Cardiff Arms park--it cannot be dismantled and then put back together, brick by brick, with the expectation that it will be the same. Once the foundation bricks are removed, the entire structure is in danger. The Government's proposals will
be bad for the United Kingdom and especially bad for Wales. That is why the people's movement is gaining strength. It is also why Viscount Tonypandy, a respected former Speaker, said that the Welsh people must not be misled
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain):
I admire the cheek, if nothing else, of Conservative spokesmen. The fat-cat party is quibbling about Assembly levels of expenditure that will be determined not by Members of the House of Commons or by Assembly members, but by the independent Senior Salaries Review Body. If the cost of the Assembly amounts to 0.3 per cent. of the total budget, a figure of which the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) is apparently ignorant, it will be money well spent in beginning to dismantle the Tory quango state. We shall start to make huge savings in the cost of the quangos.
Mr. Ancram:
How many teachers' jobs?
Mr. Hain:
The right hon. Gentleman asks how many teachers' jobs will be equivalent to the expenditure to which I have referred. That is enormous cheek when we remember that the Conservative Government over the past year cut 600 teaching jobs. They cut also hundreds of nursing jobs. It is--[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman lectures us about council tax. The Conservative Government--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) has had his say, and he must allow someone else to speak.
Mr. Hain:
The Conservative Government imposed swingeing council tax increases on almost all Welsh unitary authorities over the past year or two, and it is not for them to bleat on about the council tax issue.
The right hon. Member for Devizes talks about millions of pounds and plucks figures out of thin air, as did two Conservative Secretaries of State for Wales. The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) said that the Assembly would cost £100 million. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) halved that and said that it would cost £50 million. At the same time, there are many crocodile tears about nurses and teachers.
The right hon. Member for Devizes and his Conservative colleagues on the Opposition Back Benches claim to speak for the people of England. I remind them that the people of England overwhelmingly supported the Labour party's policy for a devolved United Kingdom. The Conservatives polled only 34 per cent. of the vote in
England. They may be a little Englander party, but they do not speak for England. They certainly do not speak for Wales or Scotland.
I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams)--I have a close relationship with him as a colleague in West Glamorgan and as a fellow Labour Member--will not be joining the Tories in the no campaign. I agree with him that any personal abuse that there has been should end.
Mr. Llew Smith:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Hain:
No. I am not giving way to anyone. I do not have the time to do so.
Any personal abuse that there has been in the campaign so far must end. I agree fully with my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West on that score.
Having been a bit of a rebel myself over the years, I do not ask for blind loyalty. No one is asking for that. However, the Labour Government were elected overwhelmingly in Wales on the policy of a Welsh Assembly. All 34 Labour Members were elected on a manifesto commitment that was crystal clear. In addition, the Labour party has unanimously passed this policy at successive conferences. We are entitled to expect Labour party members up and down the country to take note of that.
The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire(Mr. Livsey) made an important point about rural policy, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Gower(Mr. Caton). We believe that the powerhouse agency will provide a more comprehensive and coherent policy for all rural areas of Wales. Far from retreating from a strong rural policy, we shall strengthen and upgrade the rural perspective of our policy across Wales.
I welcome the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Mr. Ruane), who is a worthy champion of north Wales and of his constituents. I draw the House's attention to what he said, which no doubt others, such as my hon. Friends the Members for Clwyd, West (Mr. Thomas) and for Conwy (Mrs. Williams), would have said if they had been able to speak in the debate. All the north Wales Members support a Welsh Assembly, because they know that it will give north Wales a new voice not just in Wales, but in Britain, in Europe and internationally.
I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) that, like the Welsh Development Agency and the other economic agencies, the powerhouse will have operational independence. He asked about paragraph 2.24 of the White Paper, which refers to inward investment. It does no more than describe the existing situation as it affects the Invest in Britain Bureau, which prevents bidding wars between the different constituents of the United Kingdom. There is certainly no watering down of protection for Wales.
The White Paper lays out a series of principles on an Assembly for Wales. It will be up to hon. Members, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, to put detailed points in Committee. If their points have merit, we shall take them on board in the spirit of inclusivity with which we have governed Wales in our first three months. The White Paper stands as the manifesto on which we shall go to the people of Wales on 18 September with confidence.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) made a number of points about local government. Every local authority in Wales has enthusiastically supported the Government's programme for a Welsh Assembly. I agree with him that there should be no false nationalism. Indeed, I believe that the policy for a Welsh Assembly will bury for ever the separatist fantasy that Wales can go it alone as an independent republic.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek) make some fair points about higher and further education, which we shall have to take into account. I agree that it will not be a Labour Assembly or a Cardiff Assembly: it will be a Welsh Assembly that represents all the people of Wales.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) made some telling points about the under-representation of women not just in this Parliament but in Welsh cultural life at senior levels. It is incumbent on all political parties, when selecting candidates for the Welsh Assembly, to ensure that we achieve the goal of equal representation for women and men. I reassure my hon. Friend that the Labour will take a lead on that. I also welcome the point made by my hon. Friend that the vast majority of Labour Members, including many who have not had a chance to speak today, support the Government's policy, and will campaign actively for a yes vote.
The Government propose a modern constitution for Britain, which will include regional government in England, starting with a referendum in London and the setting up next year of powerful English regional economic development agencies. What the Conservatives and other opponents of a Welsh Assembly are really saying is that Scotland will have its own Parliament, the English regions will have their own regional bodies and Northern Ireland will have a measure of self-government, but Wales must be isolated as the only part of the United Kingdom that chooses to be ruled from London. Even by the Tories' own standards, that is an utterly incredible and insulting position.
The Tories are again treating Wales with contempt, as if it were a second-class nation deserving second-class treatment. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) made the telling point that the Tories have always opposed democratic advance, throughout the history of British parliamentary democracy and its origins. Why do they not come clean and mount their own no campaign? The Labour party has mounted a yes campaign. Why are the Tories so shy? Why are they sheltering furtively behind other no campaigners? Why are they using the no campaign as a Tory front organisation--because that is what it is?
"by this foolish proposal of a Welsh Assembly. A Welsh Assembly will fan the flames of nationalism, and that would do no good at all for jobs or the cultural life of Wales."
The land of my fathers is dear to me. It is dear to all those who live in Wales as it is to those who live in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and the rest of Europe, along with those who live in other parts of the world. They and I have pride in Wales. They and I see the strength of the United Kingdom. They and I will be campaigning and hoping for a no victory on 18 September.
"Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi".
2.20 pm
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