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5.1 pm
The Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, Scottish Office (Mr. Henry McLeish): I should be pleased to answer some of the questions put by Opposition Members and by my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell). It is important to clear up first the question about Ministers of the Crown. The meaning will be wider than Secretary of State, because there may be expenditure by Departments not headed by a Secretary of State, for example, expenditure by the Inland Revenue on computer programmes to deal with tax issues. Much of the interpretation is common sense, but it seems to be lost on some Opposition Members.
The question of junior Ministers was also raised. Clearly, that is a red herring. In this respect, as in all others, junior Ministers take decisions only on matters referred to them by the Minister in charge of their Department. I should have expected that the experience of some Opposition Members would brush off on them to the point that they would understand what is going on.
We also heard some comments about the costs involved. The total estimated preparatory costs are £18 million to £25 million, as set out in the explanatory and financial memorandum. The money resolution does not change the facts laid before the House and discussed in the other place, which are now back in this House for discussion. DSS costs are included within that limit. All that will be conditional on the Supply process of dealing with money in this House. That, too, is well known to Opposition Members.
Mr. Ancram:
It would be much more helpful if the Minister did not simply refer us to the ordinary ways in which that is done, but categorically answered the question about whether any of that expenditure will be paid from sources outwith the Scottish and Welsh blocks and whether any expenditure will be incurred by United Kingdom taxpayers rather than borne by the blocks in Scotland and Wales.
Mr. McLeish:
The right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) goes over old ground time and again. The answer is obvious: this settlement seeks to strike a balance in terms of Scots seeking to have a Parliament in Edinburgh. The Secretary of State is on record as saying that the costs of that will be borne by the block.
Mr. McLeish:
I am speaking about Scotland. Opposition Members should contain themselves. They ask questions, but they fail to give me an opportunity to respond. I have often told them that listening would be in their long-term interests, instead of carrying on as they have for the past 18 years. With great courtesy, I say that we can see where that has got them.
I shall deal with the request of my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow. Paragraph 7.10 on page 23 of the White Paper states:
Mr. McLeish:
The answer is self-evident. Labour Members do not call it the tartan tax. The Scots will be given the opportunity in the referendum on 11 September to choose whether the Parliament should have a tax-varying power. Of course, if costs are incurred via the Departments, they will come from the Scottish block. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) asks from a sedentary position why I did not say that. It has been said time and again. The questions have been posed before and answered reasonably.
Mr. Hogg:
The Minister referred to the Scottish block, and I understand why he is speaking about that. The principle also applies to the Welsh block. The House wants to know whether what is true of the Scottish block is also true of the Welsh block--in other words, whether any expenditure in Wales that is authorised directly or indirectly under the money resolution will fall on the Welsh block and not be paid by taxpayers outside Wales.
Mr. McLeish:
The answer is yes, but the debate should be conducted in a more dignified manner. The Opposition would have us believe that the settlement is not in the interests of the United Kingdom. They take a mean-spirited view and discuss the issues in terms of the UK v. Wales, and the UK v. Scotland. The country does not want that level of debate. It wants to probe hard on questions of finance, but, after 18 years of the Conservative Government's financial controls, we will not take lectures from the Opposition Front Bench.
The amendments to the money resolution are required in consequence of two sets of amendments made to the Bill in another place. Both are purely technical.
The first amendment is required to take account of the incorporation of the detailed provision for the conduct of the referendum as a schedule to the Bill. Hon. Members will recall that, during the earlier stages of the Bill, we proposed that that should be dealt with by Orders in Council, as had been the case in previous referendums. At the request of Lord MacKay of Ardbrecknish in another place, we agreed that the change should be made. That will have the fortunate consequence of allowing the House and another place to rise this week, rather than having to wait simply to debate the Orders in Council. The amendment to the money resolution is purely technical.
The second and third amendments are also technical, and mirror amendments made in another place to clarify the scope of the finance provision in clause 5. Clause 5(2) allows expenditure in preparation for the establishment of a Scottish Parliament or Welsh Assembly to be paid out of money provided by Parliament. The intention is that that provision should cover not only
expenditure on the building or refurbishment of Parliament and Assembly buildings, but advance expenditure on, for example, any adjustment to Inland Revenue and DSS computer systems required to cope with the tax-varying powers of the Scottish Parliament.
Such changes have a long lead time and, if the tax-varying powers are to be available upon the establishment of the Scottish Parliament--whether or not the Parliament decides to use them--it may be necessary to incur expenditure before the main devolution legislation reaches the statute book. The amendments are intended to put beyond any doubt the question whether such expenditure would be covered by clause 5. The estimated costs shown in the explanatory and financial memorandum remain unchanged. All expenditure under the provision will be subject to the normal parliamentary rules of Supply.
The Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, Scottish Office (Mr. Henry McLeish):
I beg to move,
Stages subsequent to first Consideration of Lords Amendments
"The Scottish Parliament will have power to authorise the Scottish Executive to undertake short-term borrowing to assist in the short-term matching of income and expenditure. It will not have a long-term borrowing power on its own account."
Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex):
Can the Minister clarify his previous answer? If, for example, the Inland Revenue incurs additional expense while setting up the tartan tax, will it be recompensed from the Scottish block?
5.9 pm
That the Order of the House of 3rd June 1997 be supplemented as follows:
Lords Amendments
1.--(1) Proceedings on Consideration of Lords Amendments shall be completed at this day's sitting and, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion three hours after the commencement of the proceedings on this Order.
(2) For the purpose of bringing proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with sub-paragraph (1)--
(a) the Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which has already been proposed from the Chair and has not yet been decided and, if that Question is for the amendment of a Lords Amendment, shall then put forthwith the Question on any further Amendment of the Lords Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown and on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth agree or disagree with the Lords in the Lords Amendment or, as the case may be, in the Lords Amendment as amended;
(b) the Speaker shall then designate such of the remaining Lords Amendments as appear to the Speaker to involve questions of Privilege and shall--
(i) put forthwith the Question on any Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown to a Lords Amendment and then put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth agree or disagree with the Lords in their Amendment or, as the case may be, in their Amendment as amended;
(ii) put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in a Lords Amendment;
(iii) put forthwith with respect to the Amendments designated by the Speaker which have not been disposed of the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the Amendments; and
(iv) put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Amendments;
(c) as soon as the House has agreed or disagreed with the Lords in any of their Amendments the Speaker shall put forthwith a separate Question on any other Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown relevant to the Lords Amendment.
2.--(1) The Speaker shall put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown for the consideration forthwith of any further Message from the Lords on the Bill.
(2) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.
(3) For the purpose of bringing those proceedings to a conclusion--
(a) the Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which has already been proposed from the Chair and has not yet been decided, and shall then put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown which is related to the Question already proposed from the Chair;
(b) the Speaker shall then designate such of the remaining items in the Lords Message as appear to the Speaker to involve questions of Privilege and shall--
(i) put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown on any item;
(ii) in the case of each remaining item designated by the Speaker, put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in their Proposal; and
(iii) put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Proposals.
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