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Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot): It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam). I can at least join him in the tribute that he paid to British industry and its contribution to the success of our defence forces.
Those who 10 years ago called on the Government to turn their swords into ploughshares are today queuing up to demand ever more defence expenditure. That is indeed an encouraging sign. The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Hutton), who represents the home of the nuclear submarine, declared on 30 May 1987 that Labour would
The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness is now calling for more aircraft carriers, so we can take great encouragement from that.
Mr. Gray:
Constituency interests.
Mr. Howarth:
There may be constituency interests there, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is also acting on principle.
The Labour party cannot claim great insight, because even the Russians are going for competitive tendering; the Labour party is not in the avant garde of change. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) said yesterday, it is a tribute to the Conservative party that Labour has been forced over the years to change its posture on defence, and our debate in the past two days is testimony to the fact that we have won the argument that strong defence leads to peace and to freedom.
The Secretary of State said yesterday that we live in a more complex world following the fall of the Berlin wall. We would all agree with that. The certainties of the cold war have been replaced by uncertainties. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) may be interested to know that I was not in the Treasury, but I worked for the Russians. While not in the House, I spent a year working for the Russian aircraft design bureau, Sukhoi, manufacturers of the Su-27 fighter aircraft; and a fascinating time it was.
I met Konstantin Marbachev, the chief designer of the Su-27, arguably one of the most potent aircraft in the world, and asked him, through the interpreter, "If we are all friends, who is the enemy?" He looked up andsaid, "Mussulmanski." [Hon. Members"Who?"] Mussulmanski--Islamic fundamentalism. That is only one potential threat. There are others, such as Russia itself, should it implode--we should not take a return to Russian nationalism lightly--and China.
We face a complex and difficult world, and it is important to prepare our armed services not only for humanitarian action but for hostilities. It is right for us to deploy our troops where they can play a humanitarian role, but we should remember what they are there for in the first placeto defend the realm and our interests throughout the world. I fear that the decision to extend the role of women in the armed forces smacks more of political correctness than of a need to deal with a recruitment problem.
The Minister faces a problem, because if we are to prepare for myriad possible eventualities, he will have to retain a nuclear capability and continue to invest in the smart weapons that made all the difference in the Gulf war and kept casualties to a minimum. He will have to invest in air superiority and in the troops who will be able to hold the territory. It is hard to see how all that can be maintained without additional resources. I agree with much of the rhetoric of the new Defence Ministers, and I think that they are men of honour, but they will be judged not by their rhetoric but by their deeds.
Many hon. Members have referred to British Aerospace's proposal to sell its Bridgwater Royal Ordnance factory to a French company, SNPE. The trade unions have produced an interesting briefing on the matter, which says:
The Government will have to grapple with the issue, because they will find it hard to rationalise the industry in Europe--which probably has to be done--without risking the loss of some critical strategic capability, which no one in the House, not even the Liberal Democrats, great federalists though they are, wants to surrender to France. We must look not only to co-operative agreements with our continental partners but to the United States, and France finds that unacceptable.
The Minister will have to deal with the Foresight programme, promoted by the British aerospace industry. He knows that the President of the Board of Trade has given her support to that programme of technological research, which is vital because we are living off yesterday's investmenttoday's export sales of defence equipment are based on past investment. The Government keep banging on about investment, so perhaps the Minister can tell us what they intend to do about the Foresight programme.
I bitterly resent the imputation that the Conservative Government did not have an ethical defence sales policy. We had a strict licensing regime. Ministers must understand that defence sales enable us to support our allies and to get value for money from production runs that we could not afford if our only marketplace was the United Kingdom. The Government will have to think hard about that. They must stand firm in support of defence sales, which are important to British industry and to the execution of our foreign policy. Saudi Arabia is an ally, and made more strongly an ally by its defence ties with us.
The royal yacht Britannia has a part to play in promoting not only defence sales but all British exports. I am very sorry that it has been dropped. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young)--my former boss, to whom I was parliamentary private secretary--was far too gentle yesterday when he mentioned all the press reports on Sunday 3 August about how the Government were going to reinstate the royal yacht Britannia. The reports were designed to ensure that the Foreign Secretary's adultery with his secretary was driven off the front pages of the newspapers. It is no good the Under-Secretary shaking his head; he knows that that was why it was done.
In the few moments left to me, I wish to raise one or two local matters because defence is a key issue for my constituency. British Aerospace has made much of the need to use the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency and tap into its resources. I stress to the Minister that we already have a defence diversification agency in the form of DERA, which employs 2,700 people in Farnborough and 8,000 scientists. It is being used; please continue to use it. When the Secretary of State comes to the centre of mine expertise at Minley, at the Royal School of Military Engineering--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Gentleman's time is up.
Ms Rachel Squire (Dunfermline, West):
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces on their excellent speeches, on their rapid reaction approach to tackling the multitude of problems left to us by the previous Government and on implementing some of the commitments made in our election manifesto. I particularly the welcome the comments of my hon. Friend the Minister today on Gulf veterans and the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt).
After a mere six months of government, we are already undertaking tasks that the previous Government dodged and shied away from not for months but for years. Even Conservative Members spoke in favour of the strategic defence review and said that the previous Government's policies had led to severe overstretch and falling of morale in the armed forces.
Listening to some speeches from the shadow defence team and from Conservative Members, I was reminded of some of the quotes I saw in 206s. For those who are not familiar with them, they are officer fitness reports which are scathing in their comments and decide whether an officer should continue in his role. I shall quote two or three and leave my hon. Friends to decide which ones apply to Conservative Members.
The first says: "This Officer"--or hon. Member--
The third states:
Our strategic defence review needs to go back to basics and ask what role Britain wants to play, what sort of military we want in the 21st century, and what are the real and potential threats to our national security and interest. The review gives us an opportunity to shape our future and that of the world we live in. It could be no better timed as we approach the millennium.
I agree with Government and Opposition Members who remarked that defence is often regarded as the least attractive area of Government policy and the prime place to make savings. We can too easily forget that the prime role of a Government is to provide their people with security and freedom. That came across to me forcefully recently when I had the honour of attending a North Atlantic Assembly plenary session in Bucharest. I became aware of how keen Romania and many central and east European countries were to join NATO because they thought that it would provide the security and freedom that they have lacked for so many decades.
The cold war may have ended, but it has been replaced by a more diverse range of security challenges. We must reject an island mentality and continue to recognise that our defence and security interests mean that we should remain in NATO and the United Nations, and support NATO enlargement.
I should like to mention the excellent reports that were prepared for the North Atlantic Assembly by my hon. Friends the Members for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) and for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen) on "Partnership for Peace" enhancement and on the cost comparisons of NATO enlargement. The Secretary General of NATO made a good point in his speech to the NAA in Bucharest when he said:
NATO should be recognised as having given us the framework for dialogue with Russia, for all the tensions that that creates. I support the Secretary of State in his vision of greater partnership and co-operation.
Despite improvements in Russian control over nuclear material, there is continuing concern about the safety of the Russian nuclear arsenal and the leakage of technology and material to unstable regimes in the middle east and elsewhere. There are also major concerns about the storage and disposal of decommissioned submarines, for example, and their environmental impact. Those considerations should play a part in our strategic defence review.
The force with which I have had the pleasure of dealing most is the Royal Navy, because I undertook the armed forces parliamentary scheme with the Navy. I recommend the AFPS scheme to hon. Members. I hope that the role of the Royal Navy in our future defence interests will be recognised. I urge that we debate fully and consider carefully the future role of the aircraft carrier. Having been on both HMS Invincible and HMS Illustrious during sea war exercises, I have seen the flexibility, range and capability that they offer.
The Minister for the Armed Forces would be surprised if I did not mention the importance of maintaining our shipbuilding and ship refitting skills, particularly at Rosyth dockyard in my constituency. I know that staff at the dockyard eagerly look forward to playing such a role.
I join others in praising and expressing my support for the reserves, especially as Dunfermline is home to one of the best air training corps in the country.
Our defence industry plays a crucial role in providing us with a capability. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to support some of the comments that have been made. I welcome the smart procurement. I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister for Defence Procurement to examine the savings that can be made in the bureaucracy that still exists in procurement.
I join all hon. Members in praising our armed forces. They make us proud to be citizens of the United Kingdom. I finish by quoting Admiral Collingwood, who said of Trafalgar, but his remark applies to all forces today:
"end the madness of our reliance on nuclear weapons",
adding that the
"arms race has brought us to the brink of total destruction"
and that the Conservatives
"claim that these weapons of mass destruction make us secure. The truth is that they do not."
Greater joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, and even greater joy if the entire parliamentary Labour party repenteth, with the exception of the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn).
"Unless Government intervenes to protect strategic capacity . . . Britain will, in future, have to depend on France to meet the needs of our armed forces, including in times of crisis."
28 Oct 1997 : Column 766
Ministers face a difficult decision. Sir Dick Evans of British Aerospace has said that the restructuring of defence industries throughout Europe is a vital priority and urged the Government to speed it up. He recognises that there is a political dimension.
7.10 pm
"is not so much of a has-been, but more of a definitely won't-be."
The second states:
"He would be out of his depth in a car park puddle."
I see that the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) appreciates that one.
"Since my last report he has reached rock bottom, and has started to dig."
The fourth quote reminds of the shadow Secretary of State, who spoke about spinning yesterday, and states"This Officer"--or hon. Member--
"reminds me very much of a gyroscope--always spinning around at a frantic pace but not really going anywhere."
I see that I have the approval of Conservative Members for introducing fitness reports for the shadow defence team.
"The costs of enlargement will pale in comparison to the costs we have to pay when peace breaks down like it did in Bosnia."
NATO enlargement means that our forces will continue to be called on to deal with a far more diverse range of security challenges. Their peacekeeping role in Bosnia is essential; they have performed excellently in IFOR and now in the stabilisation force, SFOR. We must debate more fully our involvement in peacekeeping and consider what position we are prepared to take and in what parts of the world we are prepared to operate in that capacity.
"When all exert themselves zealously in their country's services, all deserve that their high merits should stand recorded."
It is our task to ensure that our armed forces are able to continue to serve our country with such excellence.
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