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Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat under the 10-minutes rule.
8.47 pm
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire): Unlike some of the hardened old cynics from my party who have argued over the past couple of days that the strategic defence review is entirely run by the Treasury and is based on no foreign policy, I intend to accept the Secretary of State's assertion that the review has no Treasury content, that there will be no deep cuts in our armed forces and that British defence will continue much as it has for the past 20 or 30 years. However, I sympathise in advance with the Secretary of State if, when the results are announced in April or May, there are deep, hurting cuts in the Army, the Navy and the Royal Air Force, when he will have to
consider his position, having given the House such categorical assurances that the Treasury had no part to play in the strategic defence review.
I should like to make a few remarks about the Territorial Army. I have substantial defence interests in my constituency. We have the Army in Colerne, Corsham and Hullavington and the RAF at Lyneham. Astonishingly for a land-locked constituency, North Wiltshire even has the Royal Navy in the form of RN Copenacre. My constituency covers the whole spectrum.
I intend, however, to devote my remarks entirely to the Territorial Army, with which I have some personal connection and which plays an outstanding role in my constituency. I am proud to be wearing this evening the Honourable Artillery Company tie. I do not say that through any claim to military distinction because I can almost certainly say that I am the least distinguished soldier in the history of the British Army. I joined the HAC as a grade 3, band 3 gunner. I then did my basic gunner's course and my basic driver's course, and I even did my officer cadet's course, although I was never promoted. I served for seven distinguished years at the end of which I left the Army as a grade 3, band 3 gunner. Without question, that was the least distinguished career in the history of the British Army.
I am, none the less, hugely proud of all that the regiment did. In France the other day, I went into a cemetery to discover that Honourable Artillery Company members died in their hundreds at the age of 18. They marched out of the barracks in London straight into war and they were killed instantly. I am immensely proud of that record not because of my personal distinction in the regiment, but because of the regiment in general. Similarly, in the second world war, we produced thousands of officers because we had by that time become an officer cadet unit, and we are now serving in Bosnia for the first time since the second world war.
The Territorial Army makes a huge contribution in my constituency. Last Friday, I visited the 23rd signals division based in Corsham which consists of 3,500 personnel, between one half and two thirds of whom are in the Territorial Army. That base includes one regiment that is wholly territorial, the only regiment in the British Army that, I believe, is wholly integrated into a brigade. The brigade also has a squadron composed entirely of British Telecom engineers. They are not people who come away at weekends to train, but people who come away at weekends to work and to make a contribution to the signals and communications of today's modern Army.
The territorials make three particular contributions to the Army. The first is as reservists, the citizen soldiers of old, and that is a tremendously important role. The second contribution is as volunteers playing an active role, as in Bosnia, as a result of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 under which they can now volunteer to go abroad. The third contribution is the role such as that played by my British Telecom engineers.
More importantly, the Territorial Army makes a huge contribution to the local community and to businesses. The Territorial Army invests in people, especially the young. It provides people with personal skills and confidence which they would not necessarily get in civilian life. Civilian employers know that well and are happy to give extra leave to any of their personnel who choose to join the Territorial Army.
The Territorial Army also makes a useful contribution to community spirit and to some of the values that may have been lost in the 1990s. I think of values such as pride in the nation which some of our young people usefully get from the Territorial Army. The TA upholds those traditional values and is a useful link--the only useful link in many parts of the country--between the Army and civilian life.
I am concerned that the Territorial Army may be seen as the soft underbelly of the Army if the review turns out to be a cost-cutting exercise. The fact is that the TA costs only 5 per cent. of the total Army budget, but it makes a huge contribution to the country and to the defence of the realm. The TA punches above its weight in a very real way and costs about one fifth of the cost of its regular counterpart. We and the regular Army must not forget that. The Secretary of State may like to consider, instead of using regular Army officers to advise him on the Territorial Army, involving the four TA brigadiers during the review.
The regimental system may be considered to be an expensive luxury in the regular Army. It is, however, particularly important in the Territorial Army where members may be entirely separate from each other and may come together only once a week on a Wednesday evening and for two weekends in the middle of the summer. It is terribly important to them to have regimental pride, a regimental history and a regimental museum, which the hon. Member for Bury, North (Mr. Chaytor) mentioned a few minutes ago. All those things matter terribly if one sees one's mates only once or twice a month and when one often has to serve with them in extremely uncomfortable circumstances.
The boffins in the Ministry of Defence may say, "The regimental system in general is desperately expensive. Let us do away with it." They may say, "The regimental system in the Territorial Army simply cannot be justified any more. It would be much more efficient to do what the Canadians did and to bring in cross-skills units." They should bear in mind that the Canadians quickly discovered that that was a mistake and that they are in the process of reintroducing the regimental system which served them so well.
Mr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde):
I share the concern expressed by the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) about the maintenance of the Territorial Army. I must also say, although she is not in her place, that I am in profound disagreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor) when she argues for women being allowed untrammelled access to all units in the armed forces. In that regard, curiously enough as an old-fashioned Labour man, I am in complete agreement with the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne). I believe that women cannot be allowed to join infantry regiments. The mind boggles
Although he is not in his place, I offer belated compliments and thanks to the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames). When he was Minister of State, he had an open-door policy for Members with constituency problems related to the Ministry of Defence. I had a number of meetings with him. He rarely, if ever, accepted the case that I put to him, but he always showed immense affability and good humour. He once said to me in relation to the passage of Trident submarines through traditional fishing grounds near where I live that I was known as the fisherman's friend. He, too, always showed deep concern for fishermen in relation to the passage of those massive vessels through their fishing grounds. I hope that my hon. Friends will ensure that the code of practice for submarines in respect of fishermen going about their everyday activities will be strengthened. Not so long ago, we lost four fishermen in a terrible accident involving a nuclear submarine.
I thank the hon. Members for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock) and for Taunton (Mrs. Ballard) and my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen) for their support for Major Eric Joyce. He may have been somewhat indiscreet vis-a-vis Queen's regulations, but he should not have to face the ordeal of a court martial. Perhaps he will be a little more discreet in future.
Although it is a long time since I wore uniform, I am very proud of our armed services. For some strange reason, last year my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, who was then the Opposition Chief Whip, invited me to Bosnia to act as an international observer at the elections there. Again for some strange reason, I finished up in an appalling hotspot known as Brcko along with the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier). I was immensely relieved when my Tory colleague informed me that we were being guarded unobtrusively by six members of the SAS. As an old red cap, I was delighted to hear that, although I had not spotted them.
Let me say to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary that the work force at Royal Ordnance Bishoptown understand the need for change in terms of defence procurement and international agreements. The factory is not in my constituency. It is in the neighbouring one, but some of my constituents work there. They are hard working and loyal to their nation and to its defence needs. I hope that the Minister will treat with sympathy our representations on their behalf and invite the hon. Members concerned to his office, so that we can discuss the genuine fears that those people have about their continued employment.
I was pleased to hear the powerful statement by my hon. Friend the Minister of State concerning the Army's determination to stamp out the evils of bullying and sexual and racial discrimination and harassment. I certainly encountered those problems when I was a young soldier. I thought that some of the worst excesses would have been stamped out by now. I say that in defence of many of my young constituents who serve with the Argyll
and Sutherland Highlanders and other Scottish infantry regiments. Bullying by junior NCOs has to be stamped out and officers at the ranks of lieutenant, captain and major have a duty to ensure that it is eradicated.
Not so long ago, a young woman constituent of mine who had been very keen to join the Army suffered terrible harassment at the hands of a thuggish corporal during her initial training. She was treated very badly simply because she was a Scot. If certain hon. Members want separation, that is the way to send us down that road. She suffered dreadfully. I brought the matter to the attention of the then Minister of State, the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex, and it was dealt with. However, it was a disgraceful case and her parents were extremely angry. There have been other recent cases involving young recruits from Scotland who have been badly treated. The problem must be stamped out.
I should like there to be a much more open form of promotion from the ranks into commissioned ranks. I have always believed that our warrant officers and senior NCOs are the backbone of the British Army. As a young service man, I used to thank God for their presence, given some of the chinless wonders who had pips on their shoulders. When I was in a rough house, I was always pleased to have a couple of those NCOs alongside me.
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