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9.36 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. John Spellar): It is a great privilege to close this debate on British defence policy and it is also a pleasure to welcome the right hon. Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith) back to the defence Front Bench after an interval of 25 years. He gave us an interesting tour d'horizon.
Over the past two days, we have had a wide-ranging, informed and well-attended debate on matters of great importance to Members of Parliament, the armed forces and those whom we all serve--the British public. The Government want defence issues to be debated openly and attention paid to all views. That is why openness and inclusivity are two of the watchwords of the strategic defence review. In the time available, I should like to respond to some of the points raised, but my colleagues and I will be writing to hon. Members about matters that I am unable to cover tonight. I convey my apologies in advance to any of those whom I miss out tonight.
Not only has this been a useful and informed debate, but there have been some interesting revelations. The hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), the number two on the Opposition Front Bench, revealed at some length his complete dissatisfaction with the previous Administration's handling of personnel matters .
The shadow Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) revealed himself to be a serial reader of The Guardian--than which there is no more serious offence in the Conservative party, apart from having doubts about the Opposition policy on European currency.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) revealed that he was not new Labour, which was a great shock to us all. His contribution was incisive and well informed. He is one of the regular stalwarts of defence debates, as are some other hon. Members who are present.
There are others who are no longer Members of Parliament, but who used to make regular contributions to defence debates. I am thinking of Peter Hardy--who will, I am sure, be making regular, informed contributions in another place--of Keith Mans and Hector Monro, who are still very much involved in defence matters, and of Bill Walker, whose contributions were regular if somewhat predictable.
The encouraging feature of the past couple of days has been the number of new Members of Parliament who have contributed to the debate. I should like particularly to
mention my hon. Friends the Members for Crawley (Laura Moffatt), for Plymouth, Sutton (Mrs. Gilroy) and for Chatham and Aylesford (Mr. Shaw). One of the results of the general election has been a substantial increase in the number of Labour Members representing defence constituencies, and we look forward to their continuing contributions.
I am also pleased to see a number of new Opposition Members taking an active interest--although, in a couple of cases, that interest might be an act of contrition for previous incarnations in the Ministry of Defence. We look forward to all their contributions in future.
Speaking from the Front Bench, the hon. Member for Salisbury made what could be regarded as a low-key speech. However, he made some serious and irresponsible allegations about alleged delays in export licences. We have checked with the Department and with the defence sales organisation and they say that they have received no representations from industry about delays. If the hon. Gentleman knows of any individual cases, we shall be delighted to investigate, but his speech could only have provided comfort to our overseas competitors and he should reflect on whether he was selling British industry and exports short. However, given that the shadow Secretary of State has complained that Eurofighter was excluded from the strategic defence review, I suspect that industry will cease to be surprised at the antics of the Opposition Front Benchers.
The hon. Member for Salisbury also made the extraordinary move of coming to the House and defending land mines. My hon. Friends the Members for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) and for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen) raised those serious issues during the debate and I wish to ask the Opposition spokesman a simple question, so that he can clarify the position. I am sure that the country will carefully note his answer. Does he believe that the Government should sign the international treaty on land mines--yes or no?
Mr. Key:
The answer is a simple yes. We were delighted that the Labour Government carried on the work started by the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major), which led the Government of Canada to press successfully for the measure. If the Minister had taken the trouble to listen, he would have realised that I endorsed everything my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) said yesterday and added only two points. The Minister might do well to listen a little more carefully instead of sweeping ahead with generalisations.
Mr. Spellar:
The hon. Gentleman takes a long time to say yes and his answer is in complete contradiction of what he said in his earlier speech.
My hon. Friend the Member for Crawley made an excellent maiden speech. That is no surprise--she was an excellent candidate, as I discovered when I visited her constituency in the build up to the general election. It is no wonder that the previous hon. Member for Crawley moved to Mid-Sussex. However, the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) made an excellent speech, with which we found ourselves in substantial agreement. I had better say no more and spare him further embarrassment. My hon. Friend the Member for Crawley will play a constructive role on the Select Committee on Defence, as will my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor), who also spoke today.
My hon. Friend the Member for Crawley spoke effectively about Gulf war veterans, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North (Mr. Chaytor). My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, North tried to relate that to the case of the nuclear test veterans, but the situation is not comparable. My hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces has made resources available to establish the facts in the case of the Gulf war veterans' and this action has been warmly received. However, studies were carried out into nuclear test veterans, in both 1988 and 1993. Those studies were conducted by the highly respected National Radiological Protection Board and the Imperial Cancer Research Fund and were published in the British Medical Journal for proper scientific comment and evaluation. The studies showed that
I now turn to points raised yesterday by the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) and today by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Mr. Godman). Both spoke about the possibility of a merger between Royal Ordnance, which is in the Bridgwater constituency, and a French company SNPE. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has also met my right hon. and noble Friend the Minister for Defence Procurement to discuss the subject. The right hon. Gentleman will understand that I am unable to comment on the merger proposal until the matter has been examined by the regulatory authorities, I can assure him tonight that Defence Ministers recognise the efforts of the loyal work force at Royal Ordnance and will consider carefully the strategic requirement to retain access to supplies of ammunition and munitions.
Yesterday, the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis), who, I am pleased to see, was able to return from the talks to be in his place tonight, raised the subject of the procurement programmes Starstreak and ASTOR, which affect his constituency--and Northern Ireland in general.
I confirm that we remain committed to exploring the feasibility of Starstreak in the air-to-air role. We have also emphasised to our allies in the United States that Starstreak should receive a fair evaluation in its competition with the Stinger missile to fulfil a US requirement for an air-to-air capability on attack helicopters. That is absolutely necessary to demonstrate that we genuinely have a two-way street in the procurement of defence equipment, and we are emphasising that point.
On the airborne stand-off radar project, I confirm that it remains our aim to place a contract in 1998, and that the Government very much appreciate the work carried out by the two contractors involved in project definitions. In both cases, we recognise the expertise of Short's and its importance to Northern Ireland, and we fully understand why the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone raised its case so vigorously.
That leads me to broader procurement issues. From its inception, the strategic defence review has included an element dedicated to the review of our procurement
policies and processes. It could not be otherwise, given the underlying ethos of the review, which is to shape Britain's defence capabilities for the new millennium. That will inevitably feed into the way in which we equip our forces and thus our future procurement programme.
In the new strategic environment, our forces must have the flexibility to face a wide variety of tasks, from high-intensity combat to humanitarian missions, and they need the right equipment--the right capabilities--to do so. We are considering how best to procure those capabilities, making the most efficient use of defence resources. That is where our procurement policies and processes feature in the review. I would emphasise, however, that there is no procurement moratorium during the review. I hope that that answers the point made by the hon. Member for Salisbury.
We need to ensure that we obtain value for money for the British taxpayer. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, the British people want strong defence for this country, but they do not want defence at any price. We must justify every pound that is spent.
Undoubtedly, we need to do better in the sphere of our major equipment procurement. We need to eliminate the cost overruns and delays that have characterised too many equipment projects. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis) drew attention to the National Audit Office findings on the MOD's major projects report for the year ending 31 March 1996, which suggest that more than half are overspending and that most will fail to meet their original in service date.
At that time, the average slippage in projects since first approval stood at 37 months. The main reasons given for that are technical difficulties, budgetary constraints, the need to redefine the programme and difficulties with collaborative projects. Programme changes already have added, or will in later years add, a further £400 million to costs; specification changes an additional £180 million. Poor estimating has added, or will add, a further £130 million and differential inflation in defence contracts £340 million. What a devastating indictment that is of the previous Administration.
Our goal has to be faster, cheaper and better defence procurement. To coin a phrase used by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State before the Defence Select Committee in July, we are looking for "smart procurement". Obviously, the MOD and industry have a crucial role to play in its achievement and at last industry has a partner with which it can engage in dialogue.
Let us acknowledge that there are real strengths and benefits in our traditional approach to procurement, but also serious weaknesses. The process can be unnecessarily long and it can be difficult to recover the time lost in delays once they have occurred. We have also tended to concentrate effort on achieving the maximum technical capability before equipment first enters service, rather than trying to get as much capability as we can into service on time. We are therefore looking to develop alternative models for our procurement process that will enable us to respond to the realities of the modern world.
We need a range of modern, streamlined procurement techniques that allow us to keep pace with technology, with industry and with the requirements of our armed forces.
"participation in the test programme has not had a detectable effect on the participants' expectation of life, nor on their risk of developing cancer or other fatal diseases."
Since taking office, I have discussed the matter with the NRPB, which is vigorously convinced of the validity of the results.
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