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Dr. George Turner (North-West Norfolk): Does my hon. Friend recognise that, given the importance of the changes he is introducing and the speed with which they are being introduced, there would be considerable merit in having a moratorium on closures, particularly because financial issues often drive the closure argument? Such a moratorium could remain in place until the funding has been reviewed and these important changes are brought about.
Does my hon. Friend recognise that efficiency must not simply be a transfer of costs from one Government body to another or from one Government body to other parts of society? Does he recognise that it may be less costly for magistrates but more expensive for the Crown Prosecution Service and the police? The Government need to see that the issues are addressed in the round and accept that judicial efficiency is not necessarily monetary efficiency.
Mr. Hoon:
I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern, but I repeat that it is not for the Government or the Lord Chancellor's Department to announce a moratorium on court closures. The decision on closures is taken by the local magistrates courts committee. In judging appeals on
Mr. David Curry (Skipton and Ripon):
The hon. Gentleman will know--because I have told him--of the great anger in Ripon at the proposal to close Ripon magistrates court and to transfer its functions to Harrogate. That will be a blow to the regeneration of the city centre, it will make justice less accessible in a wide rural area and it represents a transfer of costs from the public to the private purse. When the appeal comes to the Lord Chancellor, will the hon. Gentleman ensure that it is examined in the context of the regeneration of Ripon and the rural area and ensure that a wide and careful scrutiny is made of the proposals put to him?
Mr. Hoon:
The right hon. Gentleman has been assiduous in drawing the attention of the Lord Chancellor's Department to the court in his area. I suspect that he holds the record for the number of letters written about any court. I have no doubt that there will be plenty of Conservative Members, and possibly some Labour Members, who will want to emulate his activities. I can only repeat that when considering an appeal carefully, it is necessary to take into account a wide variety of factors. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we will take into account the factors that he has mentioned.
Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley):
My hon. Friend will know that, in the county palatine of Lancashire, certain matters affecting the magistracy, such as the appointment of magistrates, are dealt with by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and not the Lord Chancellor's Department. Are there any aspects in the issues that he has announced today that will require consultation by that Department at the same time as his own Department?
Mr. Hoon:
Not that I am aware of.
Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove):
Is the Minister aware of the deep disappointment in Bromsgrove at the decision to close our magistrates court? Can he confirm that when I took a delegation to see him, he told us that if my local district council was willing to offer a subsidy to keep the court open, he would consider the matter? Will he confirm that, like me, he has received no notification of that offer from Bromsgrove district council?
Mr. Hoon:
The hon. Lady has also been assiduous in making clear her concerns about Bromsgrove magistrates court, although she has not written quite as many letters as the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry). I agree with her point willingly.
Mr. Ian Cawsey (Brigg and Goole):
I welcome the Minister's statement about improved efficiency, but I want to return to the loss of rural courthouses, which has been raised by several other hon. Members. In my constituency, the rural courthouses were closed by the previous Government. They have already gone, so the conversion of Conservative Members to the cause that we have supported for some years can best be described, charitably, as welcome hypocrisy.
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the major problems with the effectiveness and efficiency of the magistracy is the lack of volunteers and that it is the processes and procedures used that deter many people from coming forward? We have deeply unrepresentative benches with many members of the community and many groups being excluded. An open and accountable selection process would lead to more people volunteering and more confidence in the system and people would no longer feel that getting on the bench depended on what society or secret club one belonged to.
Mr. Hoon:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his observations. I dealt with a similar question a few minutes ago, and I repeat that sometimes the message takes a long time to get through. He has set out accurately the concerns of many people at the way in which magistrates are selected. I hope to reassure him that considerable efforts are being made to encourage applications to the magistracy and to ensure that the system is as open and transparent as it can be.
If my hon. Friend has any particular concerns, I should be grateful if he would write to me about them. I will pursue them vigorously.
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy):
Does the Minister recall meeting me a few weeks ago to discuss the proposed closure of the court in my constituency? He subsequently upheld that closure, leaving my constituency, which is 100 miles long from north to south, with one magistrates court. That is not access to justice.
May I also ask the hon. Gentleman why his statement did not contain a single word about access to justice and upholding the standard of justice?
Mr. Hoon:
My recollection is that I referred consistently to access to justice, but if that is not the case I assure the hon. Member that running throughout the Government's proposals for reforming the legal system is a commitment to access to justice. It is vital that that remains the case.
The hon. Gentleman's constituents have access to other courts not necessarily within the boundaries of his constituency, so his point about there being just one courthouse in a particular constituency does not paint the entire picture. I repeat that questions about whether a particular court should remain open or be closed are determined primarily at the local level.
Mr. David Lock (Wyre Forest):
Although I welcome my hon. Friend's statement, may I raise with him the position of justices chief executives who are also justices
Mr. Hoon:
I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. The role of the justices chief executives, as head of the service, is essential in providing a clear line of command between the magistrates courts committee and its staff, and in directing the implementation of the MCC's plans and objectives. The justices clerk's role is as a legal adviser to the magistrates. Successful management requires a clearly delineated role for justices clerks and the justices chief executives. Dual appointments inevitably risk a degree of compromise in that matter, with consequential complaints about the lack of impartiality.
Madam Speaker:
Thank you. We shall now move on.
The following Member took and subscribed the Oath: John Randall Esq., for Uxbridge.
Mr. Geoffrey Hoon, supported by Mr. Attorney-General, Mr. Peter Kilfoyle and Jane Kennedy, presented a Bill to make provision with respect to the qualification for appointment as, and tenure of office of, Permanent Secretary to the Lord Chancellor and Clerk of the Crown in Chancery: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed [Bill 68].
Mr. Secretary Straw, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Secretary Prescott, Mr. Secretary Cook, Mr. Secretary Dewar, Secretary Marjorie Mowlam, Mr. Secretary Davies and Mr. George Howarth, presented a Bill to amend the European Parliamentary Elections Act 1978 so as to alter the method used in Great Britain for electing Members of the European Parliament; to make other amendments of enactments relating to the election of Members of the European Parliament; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed [Bill 69].
Mr. Colin Pickthall (West Lancashire):
I beg to move,
The purpose of my Bill is partly to counter the propaganda of blood sports aficionados over recent months, which has sought to give the impression that the Bill to abolish hunting with dogs is concerned almost solely with fox hunting. Foxes, they maintain, are vermin and, therefore, hunters are doing us a favour by pulling foxes to bits. Recent studies have shown that foxes spend much of their lives destroying vermin, but that is by the way.
Hunting with dogs also involves deer and hares. The hare is by no means vermin. It is a spectacularly beautiful and magical animal and it is already under stress as a species because of changes in agricultural practice. Animals have to be captured and transported cross country to provide the quarry for some hare coursing events--indeed, sometimes they are captured in and brought from Ireland for the purpose.
At Altcar in my constituency, the Waterloo cup is held every February, at which time many hares are breeding. West Lancashire has many reasons to be proud of itself, but the area is ashamed that it is forced to host the Waterloo cup. West Lancashire and Sefton councils have cross-party agreements to try to end the activity in their area, but a proposed West Lancashire byelaw was stifled by the last Government. I am hopeful that legislation will make it unnecessary for the council to go through that procedure again.
At most coursing events, hares are beaten out of long grass, one at a time, on to the course. When they pass the dog handler--the slipper--he releases two dogs, which compete to catch the hare before it reaches the longer grass at the far end of the course. Points are awarded for the dogs' success in turning the hare away from its escape. Of course, many hares are caught and pulled to pieces. The fact that hares escape is used as an excuse for the event, although the presence of illegal gangs in surrounding fields sometimes ensures that escaping hares run a second gauntlet. Unlike other forms of hunting, the dogs--normally greyhounds--are faster than the hare and they usually catch up with it fairly rapidly.
Legal hare coursing is linked to illegal hare coursing. Men with dogs frequent farm land in casual pursuit of hares. When farmers try to stop it, they are often threatened with dire consequences and farmers are known to shoot hares on their land so as to keep casual coursers away. In recent years in my constituency, hares have been torn to pieces next to a primary school, with the children watching horrified from the playground; and one small girl saw, twice in one day and from her own garden, hares
killed by lurchers. It is impossible to stamp out those illegal horrors while organised events are sanctioned by the law and thereby afforded some moral licence.
Organised hare coursing is the last of the spectator blood sports. It belongs with bear baiting, bull baiting and cock fighting--all of which have been properly outlawed in this country for many years.
The spectacle of large numbers of city dwellers massed along the banking at Altcar, copiously supplied with booze and baying for blood, is a particularly unpleasant one. It is this spectator aspect of hare coursing that makes it the most loathsome of all blood sports.
The excuses made by blood sports fans are universally ridiculous. I have been told by a gentleman living in Manningtree in Essex, in one of many rather unpleasant letters that I have received--none of them from my constituents--that hares are a pursuit species--that is a new one! Apparently, they evolved to be chased. Furthermore, they are not traumatised by the chase. Clearly, this gentleman has psychoanalysed hares to discover that truth.
Coursing is excused also because of its long and distinguished history. It dates back, the same gentleman tells me, to pre-Roman times; and years ago kings and queens owned and ran coursing dogs--so that is all right then. Mr. Mark Prescott, who organises the Waterloo cup, speaks similarly--although rather more eloquently--about the history of the sport. Much the same sort of argument, of course, can be made about public beheading, drawing and quartering, a tradition espoused both by the Romans and by our past monarchs. Hare coursing is also excused because it is a celebration of the skills of the hare--the pursuit species--as well as of the skills of the hounds. Celebrating the skills of an animal escaping its human-designed torture seems perverse in the extreme.
Hare coursing is excused, too, because it is good for the hare population--even though in many areas hare numbers are in decline and hares are captured and transported to coursing areas where their numbers have collapsed. The hare population is now about 20 per cent. of what it was 100 years ago. The United Kingdom biodiversity steering group includes the brown hare in its list of species in decline or under threat.
In common with other blood sports, hare coursing is further excused by the claim that it is a country activity which is opposed only by city people. That is the most blatant absurdity of all blood sports apologias. The audience for the slaughter at the Waterloo cup gives the lie to this claim. Hunts generally are supported by urban dwellers, as more and more people move in and out of the countryside for their leisure activities.
The attempt to build up a false mystique of country life to excuse hunting with dogs is a huge deception.
Another excuse is that banning hare coursing, as with hunting with dogs generally, is an infringement of individual liberties. That argument does not bear a moment's examination. No doubt Dr. Crippen thought his liberties were being infringed when he was arrested for his activities.
The only argument for blood sports that carries any weight--not much, at that--concerns the role that they play in the local economy. The same argument is used in favour of the exporting of land mines. Few jobs are involved and they are usually temporary ones. There are
many alternatives, certainly on managed estates. Bearing in mind the inevitability of legislation on this issue in the not-too-distant future, there is time for those involved to adjust their activities and to bring them more closely in keeping with what is acceptable to most British people.
Whatever the arguments for and against blood sports, I have one major underlying concern. One does not have to be a fervent animal lover to be deeply worried by the psychology of those who obtain pleasure from the killing of an animal and who increase that pleasure by setting one animal to kill another. Even more deeply disturbing is the psychology of those who gain their pleasure from simply watching this happen without even the excuse of participating themselves in the so-called thrill of the chase.
4.19 pm
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make hare coursing illegal.
This is the fourth time I have attempted to bring in such a Bill. It may be unusual for a Member of Parliament to introduce a Bill in the fervent hope that it is rendered irrelevant by another Bill in the very near future, but that is what I am doing. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Foster) has the enormous privilege of introducing on 28 November a Bill that seeks to enact one of the most popular measures any Back Bencher could possibly initiate, and I wish him well with it.
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