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Mr. Straw: I understand my hon. Friend's point. I made it clear in my statement that we have long believed that there should be a judicial element in decisions about extensions of detention. I have no doubt that the other circumstances in which people are detained will be the subject of considerable debate when we publish our consultation document.
I accept the need to ensure that there is a real balance between the rights of suspects and the imperative of the police and security forces, on infrequent but regulated occasions, to detain people in wider circumstances than arise under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. That is the issue. We will examine it in great detail, and we will be grateful to my hon. Friend for his views, too.
Ms Jennifer Jones (Wolverhampton, South-West):
In the proposed legislation, will my right hon. Friend consider measures to confiscate the assets of terrorist organisations, to cut off their economic supply line for repeating their acts of terrorism?
Mr. Straw:
Those points will be among the elements of the consultation document.
Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicester, South):
As one of those who down the years has dealt with these matters, I warmly welcome the decision that my right hon. Friend has announced today. I remember, as he will, being labelled the terrorists' friend, which was and remains a gross calumny. I am pleased to be reprieved by his decision today.
When my right hon. Friend introduces his more general legislation, what criteria will he use to ensure a minimum distortion of our traditional civil liberties?
Mr. Straw:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his opening remarks. What we need is permanent legislation that balances the need to protect the safety of the public and the security forces against the need to ensure that suspects who are detained under the powers have proper rights, proportionate to the accusations they face. Also, the powers must be graduated according to the terrorist threat that exists at any particular time.
We all have to acknowledge that there is now a continuous threat of terrorism, certainly international terrorism, and there may be a continuing threat of
terrorism arising from the north of Ireland. Therefore, we need permanent powers that are flexible enough to deal with a situation in which the threat is relatively low, as well as emergencies where the threat becomes high.
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North):
I thank the Home Secretary for ending the exclusion orders. It is a long overdue and welcome development. Can my right hon. Friend say a little more to the House about the judicial element in detention orders, and explain why all those in detention should not have the same access to courts as anybody arrested in the normal course of events for any other alleged or suspected criminal act?
Mr. Straw:
This House has accepted over 25 years that the provisions under which terrorist suspects can be detained should be wider than those under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 because of the nature of terrorist activity. Ultimately, whether that should continue will be a judgment for the House and for the other place. It is my view that there should be that distinction but that there should be safeguards for terrorist suspects when they are detained.
We have always taken the view that one way to protect terrorist suspects is by having a judicial element in the extension of detention decisions rather than it being a decision by the Secretary of State, which is the current position under the primary legislation and which cannot be changed until that legislation is altered. How that judicial element is exercised will be considered when we are drafting the consultative document, and we will welcome the views of hon. Members on both sides of the House.
Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South):
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, as I have said many times in the past, it does not really matter whether I am killed by a terrorist or a crook--I am still dead--that the person who kills me is still a criminal, and that therefore the rights and duties in respect of interrogation should be the same? Surely we must now recognise that terrorism is a crime, and should be treated and dealt with as a crime.
Mr. Straw:
I understand my hon. Friend's point, but the simple truth is that most jurisdictions across the world, including the Republic of Ireland and many continental jurisdictions, draw a distinction between the powers needed to investigate serious but non-terrorist crimes and those needed to investigate terrorist crimes, because of the nature of the organisation behind terrorists.
We face some serious organised criminal gangs but on the whole they are not backed by states, which is the case in some forms of terrorism. That is the reality in much international terrorism and, in the past, has applied to IRA and Irish terrorism. We have to take account of that different reality in formulating the powers needed within the new anti-terrorist legislation.
Madam Speaker:
Thank you. We shall now move to the business statement.
The President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mrs. Ann Taylor):
Madam Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the business for next week.
Monday 3 November--Consideration of Lords amendments to the Firearms (Amendment) Bill.
Remaining stages of the Education (Student Loans) Bill.
Tuesday 4 November--Opposition Day [3rd allotted day].
Until about 7 pm, there will be a debate on the Government's proposals for student finance, followed by a debate entitled, "The Countryside under Seige". Both debates will arise on Opposition motions.
Wednesday 5 November--Until 2 pm, there will be debates on the motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Second Reading of the Magistrates' Courts (Procedure) Bill [Lords].
Second Reading of the Fossil Fuel Levy Bill [Lords].
Motion on the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill.
Thursday 6 November--Proceedings on the Supreme Court (Offices) Bill.
Second Reading of the Nuclear Explosions (Prohibition and Inspections) Bill [Lords].
Friday 7 November--Debate on innovation and the role of small firms on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
The provisional business for the following week will be as follows.
Monday 10 November--Second Reading of the Greater London Authority (Referendum) Bill.
Tuesday 11 November--Second Reading of the Bank of England Bill.
Wednesday 12 November--Until 2 pm, there will be the usual debates on the motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Second Reading of the European Communities (Amendment) Bill.
Thursday 13 November--Debate on a motion to take note of the outstanding reports of the Public Accounts Committee to which a Government reply has been given. Details will be given in the Official Report.
Friday 14 November--Debate on policing of London on a motion for the Adjournment of the House. Details of the relevant documents will be given in the Official Report.
The House will wish to know that on Wednesday5 November there will be a debate on the fifth framework programme for research and technological development in European Standing Committee B.
The House will also wish to know that it will be proposed that on Wednesday 12 November there will be a debate on landfill waste sites in European Standing Committee A.
Details of the relevant documents will be given in the Official Report.
[Wednesday 5 November:
European Standing Committee B--Relevant European Community documents: (a) 7310/97; (b) 10385/97, Fifth Framework Programme for Research and Technological Development (RTD). Relevant European Legislation Committee reports: (a) HC 155-ii (1997-98); (b) HC 155-iv (1997-98).
Wednesday 12 November:
European Standing Committee A--Relevant European Community document: 6692/97, Landfill Waste Sites. Relevant European Legislation Committee report: HC 155-iii (1997-98).
4.12 pm
| Report No: | Title | HC No. | Publication Date | |
| 1 | The Office of Gas Supply: The Regulation of Gas Tariffs (The Gas Cost Index) | 37 | 14 November | |
| 2 | Progress in Completing the New British Library | 38 | 20 November | |
| 3 | The Sale of the Mining Operations of the British Coal Corporation | 60 | 21 November | |
| 4 | The Construction of Quarry House | 69 | 27 November | |
| 5 | Highways Agency: The Bridge Programme | 83 | 28 November | |
| 6 | The Audit of European Community Transactions | 84 | 4 December | |
| 7 | The Hospital Information Support Systems Initiative | 97 | 5 December | |
| 8 | Information Technology Services Agency: Outsourcing The Service Delivery Operations | 98 | 11 December | |
| 9 | Resource Accounting and Proposals for a Resource-based System of Supply | 167 | 15 January | |
| 10 | Excess Vote NI DHSS | 19 February | ||
| 11 | Excess Votes Classes I, IV, VII, XIII, XIV, XVII (7&13) | 293 | 13 February | |
| 12 | ODA: Turkish Universities Equipment Project | 70 | 27 February | |
| 13 | H M Treasury: The Second Sale of Shares in National Power and PowerGen | 151 | 6 March | |
| 14 | Department for Education & Employment: Financial Control of Payments made under the Training for Work and Youth Training Programmes in England | 61 | 13 March | |
| 15 | The Award of the First Three Passenger Rail Franchises | 39 | 13 March | |
| 16 | Office of Electricity Regulation, Office of Gas Supply: The Work of the Directors General of Telecommunications, Gas Supply, Water Services and Electricity Supply | 89 | 19 March | |
| 17 | Health of the Nation: A Progress Report | 85 | 20 March | |
| 18 | National Savings: Financial Reporting | 214 | 25 March | |
| 19 | Former Yorkshire Regional Health Authority | 432 | 26 March | |
| 20 | Payments to the National Lottery Distribution Fund | 99 | 27 March | |
| 21 | The Management of Space in Higher Education Institutions in Wales | 159 | 2 April | |
| 22 | British Rail Maintenance Limited: The Sale of Maintenance Depots | 168 | 3 April | |
| 23 | Ministry of Defence: The Financial Management of the Military Operation in the Former Yugoslavia | 242 | 4 April | |
| 24 | Department of Transport: Freight Facilities Grants in England | 284 | 8 April | |
| 25 | Plymouth Development Corporation: Regularity Propriety and Control of Expenditure | 450 | 8 April | |
| Replies | ||||
| Treasury Minute on the First to Eighth Reports from the Committee of Public Accounts 1996-97 | CM 3559 | 12 February 1997 | ||
| Treasury Minute on the Ninth Report from the Committee of Public Accounts 1996-97 | CM 3577 | 12 March 1997 | ||
| Treasury Minute on the Twelfth to Twenty-Fifth Reports from the Committee of Public Accounts 1996-97 | CM 3714 | 16 July 1997 |
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