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5.35 pm
Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey): I shall start conventionally by congratulating the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound) on his turn. He waited patiently for it, but when it came, it was Ealing studios--I do not know which constituency they are in--brought to the House of Commons.
Mr. Pound: Ealing studios are in Ealing, Southall.
Mr. Hughes: I was sure that the studios would not be in the area that the hon. Gentleman represents. I do not know what his pedigree is, and in the light of what he said, it is probably inappropriate to ask, but there may be a bit of the Ezra Pound in him, too. If there are others who, like me--I say this with no disrespect--had never heard of the hon. Gentleman before today, we have now all heard of him and from him, and if he goes on like that, we shall certainly look forward to hearing from him again.
The hon. Member for Ealing, North may not be as tall as the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young), the former Secretary of State for Transport, but he is funnier. In politics, there may be many tall people, but sadly, there are far too few funny ones--at least not funny-comic. There are many who are funny in other ways, but that is not a subject for today.
The hon. Member for Battersea (Mr. Linton) said that there could be a hung Parliament, a hung council or a hung assembly, but not a hung mayor. To him I say that there could be a balanced Parliament, council or assembly, but there could also be an unbalanced mayor. That is one of the reasons why we should be wary.
I now must register a protest, but I make it clear that I intend no disrespect either to the right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) or to the
hon. Member for Ealing, North. The House will not do its job properly if the third party here, with 15 per cent. of the vote, is not called third. That is your choice, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and your colleagues' choice, but it is inappropriate for debate that the three different positions are not presented at the beginning of the debate. That is done in another place, and we should do it, too. If we are modernising our procedures, we had better do that soon.
Many people may be asking at the beginning of the debate, "Where is Ken Livingstone?" He is not present, and as he knows as much about this subject as anyone else, we shall want the mystery to be resolved before long. I regret his absence, because the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) has a view shared on both sides of the House that the Government are not right--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that we do not refer to hon. Members in that way.
Mr. Hughes:
That is why, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I immediately referred to the hon. Member for Brent, East in his constituency context. The earlier question was in inverted commas. The hon. Gentleman, like many hon. Members on both sides, is concerned not about the general thrust of the Government's policy, but about some of the detail. I hope that, as the Bill proceeds through its stages, we shall hear all voices. I hope that Labour Members who do not share Front Benchers' views will be allowed to vote accordingly. If that occurs, there is at least a chance of the result beginning to reflect the real views of all hon. Members in the House.
Ms Hodge:
The hon. Gentleman suggested that there are divisions on Labour Benches on this issue. It is well known that divisions exist within his party as to whether there should be a directly elected mayor for London. If his amendment fails, what will he recommend to his hon. Friends regarding the referendum? Will he recommend that they support the Government on the referendum issue?
Mr. Hughes:
That is a perfectly proper question.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. It is very wrong for an hon. Member to enter the Chamber and pass in front of an hon. Member who is on his feet. I do not expect a response from the hon. Gentleman concerned, but I ask him to remember that ruling in future.
Mr. Hughes:
The hon. Member for Barking (Ms Hodge) asks a perfectly proper question, and I shall deal with both parts of it. First, as there is no correct answer to the question of how London should be governed, Labour Members--like other hon. Members--should be free to exercise their differing views. I hope that the hon. Lady supports that principle. I hope that she therefore will not condone any strong-arm tendency aimed at ensuring that all Labour Members vote the same way, regardless of their views, or do not vote if they dissent from the official line.
As to the hon. Lady's second point, I confirm unequivocally that we shall recommend a yes vote. Some regional government is better than none, and some regional government elected by the people is better than none. We have no problem with that. Therefore, I hope
that the hon. Lady will participate in the debate with an open mind--as do all Liberal Democrats--and will encourage Ministers to listen to responses to the consultation process and adapt their views accordingly. We remain to be convinced on that score.
The Liberal Democrats are strong advocates of constitutional reform. We support devolution in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and we believe strongly in regional government for England. As part of that policy, we were committed in our manifesto to an elected strategic authority for London. We opposed the destruction of such an authority before, and we support its re-creation now. We believe that it should be as effective and powerful as possible. Power comes from the people, not from Governments; and the civil servants and the appointees who currently wield that power should hand it back to the people at a regional level.
We accept that regional government in England will benefit from a referendum. We believe that it was the settled will of the people of Scotland that they should have devolution, but that is not the case in the regions of England. It would be odd to argue against a referendum in London and then in favour of referendums in Yorkshire or the north-east. We believe that there should be regional government in all the regions of England, but we accept that that is best triggered by referendums. We hope that the Government will not now grow cold on regional government for the other regions just because the Welsh referendum was a close-run thing.
Our reasoned amendment--I share the view of the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler), who speaks for the Conservative Opposition on this subject--makes it clear that we think that the Government are approaching the issue in the wrong way. The Minister is aware of my views. We should not ask people to give the Government an unsigned cheque and agree to a referendum on an incomplete proposal. We have seen Labour's manifesto commitment and the first set of draft proposals. However, the Government's own description of their proposals is, a "consultation document". The Government have admitted that. I must put it on the record that even if we had not received the White Paper until the spring, we would have ensured the Bill's speedy progress through the House. We would then at least have known what the referendum was about before we voted on the referendum Bill. That is a regrettable constitutional insult, and I hope that it does not happen again.
As to the legislative detail, our reasoned amendment contains some points--the Conservatives made another one--that also raise other questions about the Bill. In large measure, we have no dispute with the Government about the date of the referendum--that is in the Bill. We have no great dispute with the Government about who should be asked the question--that is also in the Bill. However, we have a significant dispute with the Government about the questions that the people of London should be asked; and, to be honest, that is the kernel of the legislation before us.
The Government are right to propose regional government for London, but I regret that they are too timid in two respects. First, the Government are timid in not asking Londoners what sort of government they want; and, secondly, they are timid as to the powers that they are willing to give Londoners.
Mr. Wilkinson:
The hon. Gentleman has alluded to regional government in the context of a Greater London
Mr. Hughes:
That is a perfectly good question, to which I shall return later. For now, the short answer--I do not wish the hon. Gentleman to think that I am avoiding the issue--is that Liberal Democrats do indeed believe that regional government should have tax-varying powers. However, because regional government would receive the proportion of national income that is currently handed from Whitehall to the regions, it would not add to total income tax, but would simply be a proportion of the total tax that would then be collected regionally. It would be part of the whole, the remainder of which would be collected nationally. There need be no net increase in taxation--in fact, there could be less taxation. However, we believe that there should be tax-varying powers, just as there should be in Wales and Scotland. As a postscript, I note that the Government argue that there should be tax-varying powers in Scotland and also state that income tax is the fairest form of taxation. I shall give the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) a free copy of our full proposals, and invite him to read them.
The Liberal Democrats believe that the referendum should comprise at least two questions and that it should confer further powers, particularly regarding post-16 education and national health service regional strategy. It is nonsense to leave NHS planning in London to civil servants once strategic government has been established to run most of the other public services in our capital city.
As to the Minister's response to the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow), we believe that Londoners can cope with something other than a "lump it or leave it" option. We think that Londoners can manage two questions. The Minister quoted me as using certain phraseology in a broadcast. I assure him that we can reduce our ideas to simple language, and we shall do so in Committee. If the Scots could manage two questions--which they did perfectly well--Londoners can do so also. It is an insult to imply that they cannot and not to allow them to do so as a result.
The Minister claimed that we have already engendered a great debate on this subject--with respect, I suggest that 1,200 responses is no great debate. During the election campaign, I received thousands of responses to surveys from my constituents alone. If there has been no great debate on the issue, one of the reasons is that people have had no big political options to debate. If there were a choice as to whether the mayor should be elected directly or indirectly, there would be a real debate and public interest would rise. The Minister described the exercise as a new form of local government election. I ask him: please never say that again. It is not local government, but regional government. We should never forget that.
I come now to the Bill's principles and the four key points. The Liberal Democrats offer a simple statement on the principles for regional government. Regional government should produce the appropriate financial and
political powers and freedoms at regional level to allow those elected to run this great city of London, and effective accountability to ensure that those powers and freedoms are exercised with responsibility and according to the wishes of Londoners. There is no one theologically correct way of interpreting those principles. It is, therefore, how one applies the principles that counts.
Our first point is: let the people choose both whether to have a mayor and whether to have an assembly. They may prefer the Conservative proposal, put forward by the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield, they may prefer the Government's proposal, or they may prefer ours, but let the people choose. A regional government structure chosen by the people is much more secure than a structure chosen by one party--a party that will certainly be out of office at some stage in the future, however long it may remain in power for the moment. There is nothing to be afraid of. The people will be able to cope with the questions. If the people make the choice, they take the responsibility, and the Government cannot be blamed for getting it wrong.
Secondly, I ask Ministers even at this stage not to be timid about the powers to be given to the authority. They should allow post-16 education and power over the health service to be handed to regional government. The right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield admitted what all those in government know--civil servants like hanging on to power. Those in the NHS and the regional outposts of the Department of Health love hanging on to the power to dish out goodies for the local health service. No one in any party is happy that decisions about the strategy of the NHS below Government level are taken by faceless civil servants who cannot be removed. If the people who take such decisions are elected, we can lobby them and argue with them and if we do not like them, we can sack them.
Thirdly, we must have a proportional or fair voting system in London. I was not born believing that there was a particular magic about a particular voting system. London is a cosmopolitan, mixed-race, mixed-language, mixed-community city. As the hon. Member for Ealing, North pointed out, we are a cluster of villages, towns and hamlets--the Kingstons, the Richmonds, the Suttons, the Cheams and the Twickenhams in the south and west and the Barnets, the Hendons and the Clerkenwells in the east and north. There are many, very different places in London. That diversity cannot be properly represented without a fair electoral system. It must be proportional and must allow all shades of opinion to be represented. Proportional representation has been agreed for Scotland, for Wales, for Northern Ireland and for Europe. If we do not have a fair voting system for London, we shall fail the political process. For those who are still sceptical, I am willing to debate separately the merits of different electoral systems for this place and that for local government. Those are different issues. London government is regional government and we must have an appropriate electoral system for this city and this region of ours.
I seriously hope that the White Paper, if it appears before the referendum, will propose that we seek agreement across the Floor of the House on the best electoral system. If the Bill becomes an Act, before the next Bill comes forward, we could achieve a similar agreement in London to that which was achieved in Scotland. We therefore propose today that there should be a constitutional or electoral commission for London with
representatives from all democratically elected parties in London and others who have an interest--unions, management, business, ethnic minorities and other community groups. We must try to agree on a system. If we agree on a system, it will be secure. If we impose one, it could well be thrown out when the Administration is changed.
As a postscript and an example, we are all aware that there will soon be a by-election in Beckenham. The people of Beckenham feel themselves to be partly in Kent, not in London. Liberal Democrats have put forward a proposal that reflects the old counties of London--there is a Kent bit of London, a Surrey bit of London, a Middlesex bit of London, an Essex bit of London and the old central London. That might not be the perfect model, but it might be a good one and we should like to talk to people about it. If our proposal made the people of Beckenham--or anyone else--feel that the authority was more representative of their part of Greater London, it would be worth considering.
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