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Mr. Ottaway: Is not the hon. Gentleman making a very good argument for a constituency-based assembly?
Mr. McNulty: No. The hon. Gentleman has either misheard or misconstrued my remarks. One of the forms of proportional representation may address my concern. I am not saying that Harrow desperately needs its own separate member of the assembly or that the mayor must come from Harrow, in order for Harrow, outer London and suburban London to have a voice.
After three years on the London Planning Advisory Committee, I have come to the view--which, to some extent, is shared by Conservative and Liberal colleagues on that body--that London means London. It does not stop at Hammersmith, Westminster or Newham, and areas such as my constituency are not that nasty little bit before the green belt and the M25. Harrow and the other outer London boroughs deserve a voice within the assembly, and it is for the House--working with the London boroughs, the mayor and the assembly--to ensure that they have more say than has been the case in the quagmire of quangoland that we have inhabited since 1986.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey for mentioning that the Further Education Funding Council is now regionally organised and that planning and strategic considerations are addressed on a regional basis. If, for whatever reason, it is not possible for the mayor and the GLA to take over that function--and the same applies to London's health
service--at the very least Londoners should be afforded an exciting and innovative scrutiny role in respect of health and further education. However, the assembly should not be toothless; it should have some clout, and we can talk about that after March and before May.
The role of the FEFC clearly matters to Londoners, not least in terms of the regeneration work of the regional development agency, which will be transferred to the GLA, and economic regeneration more generally. It is daft that there is no Londonwide control of those issues. There is an equal case for strategic scrutiny in terms of London's health service, which also requires consideration.
None of those concerns, however, detracts from the Bill, which is long overdue and seeks to get in motion the whole process of working towards a referendum for the mayor and the assembly. The Conservatives missed the boat in Wales and Scotland, but--to mix metaphors--they can be in the front carriage once the referendum is out the way. By all means, as you will anyway, campaign in the referendum against the one question, but once it is out of the way--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. Perhaps I can assist the hon. Gentleman. He has used the term, "you" several times, but I shall not be contesting or opposing anything.
Mr. McNulty:
I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I am grateful for your clarification.
Sir Sydney Chapman (Chipping Barnet):
As the first Conservative to speak following the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound), may I associate myself and my colleagues with the tributes to that speech? The hon. Gentleman made an entertaining, witty speech, full of humility for his constituency. I have two comments. First, Ealing, North and its new Member have gained in stature as a result of his speech. Secondly, referring to his quotation from John Betjeman, I find Ealing, North today a more attractive place than it was yesteryear, if only because I suffer from hay fever very badly and am therefore reassured that I will no longer smell the scent of the hay if I visit that constituency.
The House will appreciate the hon. Gentleman's tribute to his three predecessors, my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) and to the former Members for Ealing, North, Mr. Harry Greenway and Lord Molloy. The fact that I was in the House when Lord Molloy represented Ealing, North is a sign of my advancing years.
Obviously, I should like to mention what I consider to be valid views for consideration in the debate about the Bill. First, I subscribe to the view that there should be
two separate questions in the referendum. It may be that, implicitly, the Labour manifesto put the two issues together, but it certainly did not do so explicitly.
Secondly, I should have thought that the Government were great enough to be prepared to listen to people. As I understand it, it was not the Government's original intention to put two separate questions on the Scottish issue, but they decided to do so between the election and the referendum. Therefore, I hope that they will listen to the people of London and reconsider the matter. After all, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) said, widespread support for the two questions ranges from Conservative London boroughs to the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone). One could not find a wider political spectrum.
Incidentally, my local borough, which is run by a coalition of Labour and the Liberal Democrats, believes that there should be two questions. I also understand that the London trade union representatives agree, as does The Times, which I remember as The London Times. So, from the carthorse to the thunderer, a great political spectrum supports a two-question referendum. I shall return to that point in respect of another matter at the conclusion of my speech.
A directly elected Greater London authority and a directly elected mayor is a recipe for division and dissension. It need not be, but it almost certainly will be. The reason is very simple. If anybody were directly elected as mayor, they would feel that they had a status which gave them importance and influence. Although they would seek to work with a Greater London authority, the London boroughs or, indeed, with a Government office for London, the fact remains that they would feel that they had a special relationship with the people of London, and would use it to put forward the manifesto on which they were elected. In addition, since an elected mayor of London would be unique in our country, it would further the importance of the office.
I accept that such a problem could be overcome by Greater London authority members--or whatever they will be called--electing the mayor. That would be the better way to go about it. After all, that is exactly what every local authority does at the moment. Successfully elected councillors proceed each year to elect a mayor. Such a process would be much more in tune with the precept and practice of local government.
What I shall say next will certainly not be popular on the Government Benches, but I feel duty bound to say it. London, as we all agree, is a huge and unique city. Thirty-two London boroughs each represent--I think--a minimum of 150,000 people and, at the most, more than 300,000. My borough of Barnet serves a population of more than 300,000. We must therefore consider whether there should be special arrangements for our metropolitan and capital city.
When we considered such arrangements 11 years ago, it was found that there was no need for a Greater London council. Indeed, experience and the activities of the Greater London council led the then Government to believe that a directly elected Greater London authority was not necessary. The main reason was that London boroughs embraced most--but not all--of the powers and responsibilities of local government.
Incidentally, from Labour Members' remarks, the attitude that comes over to Conservative Members is, "We are the masters now; we have won the election and so we can do what we want." [Hon. Members: "No."] I am afraid that it does come over like that. If I remember rightly, the proposal to abolish the GLC was in the Conservative party manifesto for the 1983 election. If I also remember rightly, the Conservatives won a huge majority in the subsequent election. There were certainly many more Conservative Members than Labour Members representing London.
Mr. McDonnell:
Following the election in 1983, was there a referendum so that Londoners could have a say about the abolition of the GLC? I doubt whether the hon. Gentleman could recall a referendum taking place.
Sir Sydney Chapman:
The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that there was not a referendum. I am not arguing that there should necessarily be a referendum before setting up the Greater London authority. There was not a referendum before setting up the GLC and, as he said, there was not one before abolishing it. It is his Government who decided, for understandable reasons--I do not quarrel with them--that there should be a referendum. I accept that they are carrying out their party manifesto pledge, but I am arguing that there was no need to pledge a referendum ahead of introducing a Bill.
The most important point is that we should know exactly what is to be set up, how it is to be set up and what it will cost before we ask Londoners to vote in a referendum. I ask the Minister for London and Construction to consider that. He may well respond that there will be a White Paper in March, a few weeks ahead of the referendum on 7 May. I say to that, "Well, there is many a spill betwixt White Paper and Bill." It would be far better if Parliament had the chance to look into the devil of the detail first. Then, when we know exactly what we are to have, we could put the question to Londoners in a referendum. Not to go about the matter in that way is offering Londoners a menu without the prices.
I believe that there is no need for a Greater London authority or a GLC mark II, simply because the boroughs have the resources and capacity in most functions to decide policy--and, as a result. they are able to bring government nearer to the people of London. Where a strategic authority is necessary to deal with certain planning matters, such strategic decisions ought to be taken by the Government, because so many such decisions affect not only Londoners but many people outside London and, indeed, in the south-east as a whole.
As has been pointed out, the Metropolitan police area goes outside the Greater London boundaries. The London Underground system on certain lines goes well beyond the Greater London boundaries. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of commuters come from outside the Greater London boundaries--from Northampton in the north, well beyond Southend in the east, as far south as Brighton and certainly as far west as Reading, if not beyond. So many matters that affect Londoners and London demand consideration far beyond the Greater London area.
The former Greater London council was a recipe for dispute and dissension. I give one example of that: the docklands. Nothing was done in the docklands, despite five London boroughs being involved in its replanning. It
was difficult enough to get all five boroughs to agree. They very rarely did, but even if they did, they did not agree with what the GLC wanted to do. A special agency was formed finally, which has been much more successful in developing that part of our great city.
However carefully the powers of a GLA or an elected mayor are defined, empire building will follow as sure as night follows day. That happened with the GLC and it will most certainly happen with any Greater London authority. There will be plenty of scope for arguing not only with the boroughs but with the Government.
Let us consider what will happen if the Greater London authority is set up. I use as a basis the Minister's speech in July and the Green Paper. For a start, the members themselves and their expenses will give rise to costs. That is certain and nobody will quibble about it. However, in addition, huge costs will arise in employing the staff needed to carry out the scrutiny of the budget, the strategy, and the appointments made by the mayor--as was mentioned by the Minister for London and Construction and in the Green Paper. Costs will also arise from the committees that will be set up, which will resemble giant Select Committees with powers to call for people and papers and to examine London issues. Those committees will produce reports and strategic reviews and will have the power to summon the relevant London organisations before them. The costs that arise will be proper, but significant.
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