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Mr. Brake: Will the hon. Gentleman explain why he believes that if the London assembly were given the powers of the Government office for London or of quangos, it would inevitably--as he has stressed on several occasions--take powers away from local government?
Mr. Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that very important point. We should begin by examining the powers that will be given formally to a separately elected assembly. At the outset, they may appear to be the powers of central Government rather than those of local government or the London boroughs, but I believe that the assembly will be constrained in several ways. Central Government will find it extremely inconvenient if a separately elected assembly seeks to second guess, depart from or contradict central Government policies. Therefore, over time, central Government will pressure that body to spend less time second guessing central Government policies and more time seeking to implement its strategic direction through the powers of other subsidiary bodies. I fear that such an assembly will ultimately seek and receive the power from central Government to issue directions to bodies within London.
I suspect that the first and most serious of those areas of activity will involve the relationship between the regional development agency and the planning system in London. I shall not elaborate on that point now, but I believe that that will be affected. A separately elected assembly will add a further tier of government--it will reflect the regional ambitions of Ministers through which they seek to justify their devolution plans elsewhere. In seeking to expand their role, assembly members will second guess the mayor. The danger is that that will create the grotesque over-government of London.
That brings us to the question of what we should have instead of a separately elected assembly. I must depart from the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) and the Minister. It seems extraordinary to assert that the leaders of the London boroughs are incapable of coming together and doing other than arguing solely for their local interests. It is extraordinary to claim that they are incapable of acting as the scrutineers of strategic activity and direction given by an executive mayor. I believe that we should look to the London boroughs or their representatives--the leaders or other people within those boroughs--to provide the essential checks and balances on the activities of the directly elected mayor. That should occur not simply for reasons of propriety or so that committee appointments are made in accordance with Nolan rules, but in order to meet the needs of many parts of London.
I make no claim to represent any part of London, but I was born in that area that was kindly called "Essex London" earlier in the debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge discovered during the by-election campaign, those who live in boroughs such as Hillingdon and Havering--whence I came--do not necessarily consider themselves part of an homogenous London.
Hon. Members have referred time and again to the communities of London, the diversity of London, the differing interests of London and the culture and geography of London. It is vital that the representatives of that diversity should be at the core of scrutinising the activities of the directly elected mayor.
Mr. Wilkinson:
My hon. Friend has generously allowed me to have a second bite of the cherry. He and I are at one in recognising the fact that particular borough interests should be represented on the assembly so that the views of constituents in those areas are put across and so that the mayor pursues policies that suit those interests. However, would it not be better if the representatives were elected directly by the borough electorates so that the voters may choose the people who are best able to represent them on a Londonwide forum? Even if the representatives fulfil that function indirectly, we must remember that they were elected originally to represent a particular ward at borough level, which is a different level of responsibility and may require different qualities.
Mr. Lansley:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, which allows me to understand his case better. I agree that representatives on an assembly that scrutinises the activities of a directly elected mayor should be drawn from the London boroughs, for precisely the reasons that my hon. Friend has given. However, I believe
I shall move towards a conclusion, as I do not want to delay others who wish to contribute to the debate. The assembly does not pass any of the three tests that I have suggested, including cost effectiveness. According to the Government's estimates, it will cost £20 million simply to establish the body, let alone meet its future expenditure requirements. Therefore, as we must draw differing conclusions about the two proposals that lie at the heart of the legislation, I believe that the people of London should be able to reach different views about the merits of a separately elected assembly compared with a directly elected mayor. It seems wholly wrong to encapsulate the two issues in one question: if people have differing views, they should be able to express them. I think that the Government should be abashed at their transparent fear that the people will opt for a mayor and against an assembly.
I must refer to another serious flaw in the legislation, which--at the risk of repeating myself--I raised by way of intervention during the speech of the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Davies). As with the devolution legislation for Scotland, on which I made my maiden speech, the Bill seeks to treat a referendum that will be held before legislation is passed in this place as if it took place after the passage of legislation. There is a long constitutional tradition in this country that the role of referendums is to approve constitutional changes after the two Houses of Parliament have decided on the measures. When referendums were held in the past--I think particularly of the 1975 referendum--it was made clear that if the relevant legislation had not been passed, the results were advisory and not binding on Parliament. Yet Labour Members referred to the referendum today as though it was mandatory--as though a mandate would be exercised on Parliament. I repeat the point that I made on 21 May in the House: it is a constitutional aberration to treat a referendum in that way. If the Government wish to be advised of the views of the people of London on their policy, I have no problem with their holding a referendum, but I object to their treating that referendum as binding on Parliament.
London is a unique city. References to forms of government in other countries are probably misplaced, because London is unique in many ways. People have often sought to translate the circumstances of other cities to those of London and have found that it is not possible, because London is much bigger or because it has more complex problems. London is a city of many communities. The borough councils are close to those communities. If a mayor is needed to give London impetus and direction, he should be given the support and the scrutiny of the London boroughs in an assembly derived from the councillors of those boroughs rather than in a separately elected body, distanced from the London boroughs.
The deficiencies of the Bill are clear. I urge hon. Members to support the Conservatives' reasoned amendment.
8.30 pm
Mr. Tony Colman (Putney):
We have heard three excellent maiden speeches this evening. The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Randall) said that he was particularly interested in wildlife and conservation. I look forward to hearing him speak on that subject. He will welcome the fact that, as the consultation document points out, one of the key roles of the new authority will be ensuring sustainability for London in the 21st century. I welcome him as a fellow business man. I am pleased to see him swell the ranks on both sides of hon. Members with such backgrounds.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound) also made an excellent maiden speech. It was extremely humorous and greatly enjoyed on both sides. He certainly placed his constituency on the map in a way that no other Member has managed.
The third maiden speech was from my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Casale). I am a constituent of his. It gave me great pleasure to see the results in Mitcham and Morden and in Wimbledon. I thank him for his kind words about my previous role as leader of Merton council.
I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Davies), who is not now in the Chamber, that Sam Hammam of Wimbledon football club tells me that he has great interest in returning to the borough. Many hon. Members will know that my first allegiance is to Norwich City football club, but, for most of the past six years, I have been dealing with how to bring Wimbledon football club back to the borough. I am glad that my hon. Friend is taking on that additional role. I look forward to seeing them play back in the borough shortly.
Although I am a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon, I live only 600 yd from my Putney constituency. I mention that because those Conservative Members who are previous leaders of Wandsworth council seem to have done the chicken run to leave Wandsworth as quickly as possible. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) has moved a significant distance. The hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir P. Beresford) previously represented Croydon, Central, but I think that he felt that the heat was getting a bit much, so he moved even further away.
The current leader of Wandsworth council tried to move to Beckenham recently, applying to be the Conservative candidate. Wandsworth is no longer flavour of the month, or even the decade, as it was under previous Administrations. Mr. Lister did not make the final list and is not the candidate. Obviously he was seeking to leave Wandsworth before defeat in next May's election.
Mr. Lister has put forward 11 questions that he believes should be included in the referendum. The right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) suggested that the Greater London authority and the concept of a directly elected mayor were part of Parkinson's law. Parkinson's law has already struck in Wandsworth, with the 11 questions. Mr. Lister says:
"It may be a trail-blazing referendum to include so many separate questions."
I suggest that it would be a trail blazed too far.
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