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Mr. McNulty: They would even lose that.
The great explosion of interest in referendums has not applied to the workings of local councils. Wandsworth has undertaken many interesting policies, but the people of Wandsworth or Putney have not been polled, other than on a four-yearly basis, on their views on the cuts.
The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) was concerned that the Bill should not result in an unsigned cheque being given. The White Paper will be available next March, giving the people of London full information on which to base their views.
The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Sir S. Chapman) was concerned about a perceived attitude among Labour Members that we are the masters now. We are talking about a manifesto pledge that was subject to considerable debate and many statements during the general election campaign. We put our proposals for a Greater London authority made up of a directly elected mayor and a directly elected assembly to the people of London during the election campaign.
I am in favour of the combination of mayor and assembly. I have spoken elsewhere about Seattle in the state of Washington in the United States of America. It has done excellent work on sustainability, in which it leads the world. Seattle and King county together contain 7 million people, which is equivalent to the size of London. There we have an excellent directly elected mayor, Norm Rice, who has been mayor for over a decade. Jim Street was the leader of the assembly between 1979 and 1993--some 14 years. The leader is elected by members of the assembly in the same way as council leaders are elected in the London boroughs. I commend that system as a concept. It is important to have a balance between a leader elected by the membership of the assembly and the directly elected mayor. Such a system of checks and balances works; I have seen it working in
Seattle, one of the most prosperous and fastest-expanding but civilised cities on this earth. I very much commend the system to the House as a way forward.
I was particularly impressed by the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) who seemed to break ranks with the Opposition in terms of coming out in favour of a directly elected assembly and a directly elected mayor. He believed that that was the only way in which to make things happen, but he was concerned that the directly elected mayor would be there only for photo opportunities.
I was proud to be on the streets of London on Saturday with my four-year-old son Oliver, whose birthday it was. I have often attended the Lord Mayor's show and this year, it was again a marvellous spectacle for all Londoners. It may be a photo opportunity, but it is great to see the ceremonial attached to that ancient office. I look forward to the first Lord Mayor's show of the whole of London in 2000 and I look forward to taking my children to it. I assume that it will be in April or May 2000. We shall have a show that is not just a photo opportunity, but a celebration by the people of London of their future and what they have voted for. They will be able to see what they lost in 1986 and have now got back.
I talked about the London borough of Wandsworth and the document it produced. I am interested by the positions that Wandsworth takes, which often seem to be contradictory. Two major issues face my constituents, both of which are related to the Greater London authority. The first is air traffic noise and the second is the national health service. My hon. Friend the Minister for Transport in London was kind enough to reply to me in an Adjournment debate on aircraft noise last Monday and she gave me some assurances. In that debate, I pointed out the terrible suffering of the people of Putney and the need for responsibility for aircraft noise to come under the directly elected mayor and assembly rather than under national Government. That is very much wanted by the people of my area.
Interestingly, the leader of Wandsworth council states clearly:
At the moment, national health service planning in London is rather like Serplan as it goes up to Cambridgeshire at one end and to the English channel at
the other, with the North Thames and South Thames regional health authorities. There is no London health executive. I feel that most keenly in terms of fighting for the future of Queen Mary's university hospital. My predecessor, David Mellor, claims that I am doing nothing of the sort. I assert strongly to the House that I am fighting with every bone in my body to ensure that the hospital stays open and has a full range of services.
The leader of Wandsworth council, having backed the need for the hospital to remain open and to have full services, nevertheless feels that health should not be dealt with at Greater London authority level. He says:
I very much look forward to the White Paper in spring 1998 which will give us a blueprint for the Greater London authority. There are two areas about which I am particularly concerned. I am pleased that we now have a business board for London. It has been a pity that the voice of the business community has been muted or indistinct. The London Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the Confederation of British Industry London region and London First are coming together in a business board. It is very much the way forward to have a single voice that can put views to the new strategic London authority.
My hon. Friend the Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck) talked about the London Voluntary Service Council's proposals for a civic forum. Something similar has already been agreed to go alongside the Scottish Parliament and I hope that we can have such a forum in London. I am proud of what I have been able to do over the past two and a half years in putting together the London Agenda 21 Forum. It works on the basis of a stakeholder forum and it ensures that all voices are listened to in London--that black and ethnic minorities, young people, the voluntary sector, women and all the various communities of London have a say in the future of London. Such a forum will be important in advising the Greater London authority, both in terms of the directly elected assembly and the directly elected mayor.
Mr. Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar):
We have been fortunate today to hear a number of distinguished maiden speeches. I heard the speech by the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound). It was an amusing contribution and he spoke with great clarity. I am very
Unfortunately, I was unable to hear the two other maiden speeches because of a constituency commitment, but I look forward to reading them in tomorrow's Hansard.
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Colman), who made a number of proposals with regard to the mayor. In particular, he suggested Seattle as a likely model. After all, Seattle is the suicide capital of the United States and I can think of no better model for the referendum than a city where many people earnestly wish to cast off this mortal coil.
Having heard the hon. Member for Putney speak a number of times, it is clear that he really must rid himself of his obsession with Eddie Lister, the leader of Wandsworth council. Over the years, the hon. Gentleman has taken a significant number of biffings from Eddie Lister, and no doubt he will face more over the next few years. However, we should like to hear his views on other matters than his dislike of Eddie Lister. It has to be said that Mr. Lister's suggestions, which offer the electorate considerable choice, result from the fact that the Government are providing no choice at all.
A number of Labour Members have chided the Conservatives for changing their views about the election of a London mayor. My hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) and I made a significant contribution to that and I make no apology for that. We listened to our local councils, London boroughs and, above all, we listened to the people of London to find out what they wanted. The Government may elaborately dig an elephant trap for the Conservative party, but we have no obligation to fall into it and repeatedly impale ourselves on the sharp sticks waiting there. [Interruption.] The Minister makes a sedentary intervention, but I explained the position to him in a television studio not so long ago. [Interruption.] The Minister and I move in exalted circles.
It is important that a referendum should ask two questions because the first real mayor in the United Kingdom with substantial powers, other than ceremonial powers, will be in London. It is an important innovation, so we should be able to give the people of London a choice. After all, most people understand what a strategic authority is about and have no problems in coming to terms with it. We should be able to ask the people of London, "Do you want this innovation or would you prefer a traditional model? Would you prefer to have the traditional model alongside this innovation?"
Let me take my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire to task in a small way for saying that referendums are not mandatory on Parliament. That may be the constitutional position, but the hard truth is that votes get results, and results give a mandate. Hon. Members who are elected to Parliament would be extremely foolish to ignore what the people of London say.
If referendums are to have a regular place within our constitution and we are to work in the same way as a Swiss canton, we should embrace the concept of referendums. However, there is no point in having a referendum simply to rubber stamp the Government's actions and asking questions such as, "Do you want
a General Pinochet elected for another seven years?" or "Do you want a London mayor?" or "Do you want an elected assembly for London?" There has to be a real choice. As has been pointed out by hon. Members on both sides of the House, it is perfectly possible to vote yes in the referendum for a London mayor and a London assembly or for a London mayor or simply for a strategic authority. The Liberal Democrats have made it absolutely clear that they will support a yes campaign in the referendum, even if they have to vote for a London mayor.
A mayor has enormous potential within local and regional government. Clearly, the London mayor will not be the last mayor within the constitutional framework. However, there is a difference. I would have anticipated--and so would my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire--that the first mayor would represent one of our larger city conurbations such as Manchester, Birmingham or Leeds, where the mayor would have significant powers. The mayor for London will have significant powers of persuasion and considerable authority, but he will not have the same powers as the mayor of a metropolitan borough. He will have the opportunity to speak up for the needs of London and to co-ordinate strategic services across the city. However, the real function of a mayor should be to speak for, co-ordinate and control the two sectors of government in London that have real power--central Government and the London boroughs.
Since the abolition of the Greater London council, the London boroughs have carried enormous clout in terms of the delivery of services. We have to recognise that there is a function for local government in London.
I represent an Essex constituency on the fringe of London, but part of my constituency is served by the Metropolitan police. My electorate will have no voice in respect of the policing of the part of my constituency that is served by the Met. Previously, if I was unhappy with the Essex police, I could consult the chief constable, and if I was not happy with the chief constable, I could talk to the police authority. In respect of the part of my constituency served by the Met, I could speak to the Commissioner, and if I was not satisfied I could consult the Home Secretary. However, my constituents who live in the area served by the Met will feel disfranchised and so will I.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Sir S. Chapman) pointed out most persuasively, one needs only to look at a map of the United Kingdom--the airlines and the road network--to recognise that our transport system is centred around London. I should say to the hon. Member for Putney that I do not support the idea that the London authority should be responsible for monitoring aircraft noise, in that the majority of flights in the stacking procedure for Heathrow airport fly over my constituency. I would be very resentful if a London authority were to determine aircraft noise, because much of the aircraft noise is suffered by my constituents in Essex, and not the constituents of the hon. Member for Putney.
We have to recognise that there is a touch of nostalgia or a naivety in speeches from Labour Members. In one breath they charge us with the disappearance of the Greater London council and present the Greater London authority as some kind of retaliation. Unless I have misread the consultation document, there does not seem to be any intention to bring back the Greater London
council. Therefore, in many ways, Labour Members are endorsing the decision to abolish it. If they thought that the GLC did such a great job, they would bring it back. Clearly, they do not.
An excellent paper by Tony Travers describes a time in the 19th century when people wrote that London did not exist. As in the 19th century, we have a number of diverse communities across London. There are 33 distinct communities. Labour Members talked about a tale of two cities. The truth is that, in the Greater London area, we have a tale of 33 communities. That is why London boroughs' leaders should play such an important part in consultation and decision on how London should be governed.
It is wrong to suggest that members of a Greater London authority should not be elected on a borough basis. People should be responsive and accountable to their communities. If they are not, they end up on a list, being the property of the political parties. No longer would people stand up for the individual communities that make up London. We would have people who curry favour to ensure that they feature higher and higher on their party's list.
Communities have a right to ensure that London is looked at as a whole. It is very insulting to borough leaders and the people of London to think that one part of London will not pay attention to the others. If a list system exists, the nightmare that Labour Members described will come about. There will be enormous concentration on Westminster, the City and the west end to the detriment of people in outer boroughs.
The primary function of a Greater London authority is to be a check on the mayor. I, however, believe that it will start to grow in one specific area: in its powers to scrutinise, call witnesses and hold inquiries. It is from those inquiries that it will gradually receive its mandate. Increasingly, it will find itself the main executor of Government diktats.
I return to the central question whether we should have two questions on the referendum; whether the referendum is to be used as a rubber stamp. In his very thoughtful introduction to the debate, the Minister for London and Construction promised us many things. He promised us that we would get an explanation of why it was not possible to have a mayor without a strategic authority. Other than saying boldly that that would not work, nothing came out. It is clear to me that he might have a system that is better than what the Liberal Democrats or the Conservatives offer, but he does not have--even so early in what undoubtedly will be a distinguished ministerial career--an absolute monopoly on truth.
"However, the existing framework copes well in the limited areas where co-ordination is needed. Many issues (e.g. noise and air quality) are not peculiar to London, and it is sufficient for national arrangements and powers to apply."
On noise, the leader of the council says:
"it is difficult to identify what added value could conceivably be supplied by a GLA. The powers are mainly national ones applied locally by the boroughs. Any London co-ordination is already handled by the ALG".
I very much support the Association of London Government, but I do not think that it is involved with aircraft noise. The leader of the council continues:
"The main London-wide issue, aircraft noise, is handled through the land-use planning framework, as currently exemplified by the public enquiry on the proposed Terminal 5 at Heathrow."
That is not acceptable to the people of Putney and Wandsworth. They want to see those matters decided regionally and not nationally. I strongly disagree with the leader of Wandsworth council and my view has significant support in my constituency.
"However, I do not believe health is a desirable function for any GLA, either at the strategic or operational level."
That is a disgrace. What is needed is for the Greater London authority to take an interest in health. We should move away from the extraordinary situation whereby health policy is made over a huge area stretching from Cambridgeshire to the English channel.
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