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Mr. Mitchell: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's interpretation of what happened during debate on the Maastricht treaty was quite correct. It was my experience that the opposition was left to some 30 Conservative Members, who were then on the Government Benches, and about 60 Labour Members on the Opposition Benches. There was collusion between those on the two Front Benches to smuggle a treaty through that neither of them particularly wanted but wanted to pass.
Mr. Collins: The hon. Gentleman was a Member of the previous Parliament and I was not, but he will know that, in the vote on the paving motion--I repeat that that paving motion, which was necessary to ensure that the process of ratification of the Maastricht treaty could continue, took place five years ago almost to the day--the entire Labour party, including its most Europhile members and those who have lectured us today continually about how, if we oppose the Amsterdam treaty, we must be against membership of the EU, voted against the motion. They knew that, if they had prevailed in that vote, ratification of the Maastricht treaty could not have proceeded.
Mr. Mitchell indicated assent.
Mr. Collins: The hon. Gentleman is nodding, so perhaps he will accept that point.
I turn to what is not in the Amsterdam treaty. It was notable that the Foreign Secretary made no reference whatever to fish. The subject was mentioned by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) and others. What the Foreign Secretary did instead was shake his head vigorously when my right hon. and learned Friend described the exchange of correspondence between the Prime Minister and the President of the Commission as "worthless" and pointed out that that correspondence had no legal status and was therefore not as good as modifying the treaty.
In my capacity as a member of the Select Committee on Agriculture, I asked a question and was told this morning by the most senior official dealing with fisheries in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that that exchange of letters had no legal status whatever. Frankly, the clear statement that we were given in advance of the general election that the Labour party would fight at least as hard as the previous Conservative Government on behalf of British fishermen has been shown to be worthless.
What else is not in the treaty? Notably, there is no exchange for the United Kingdom for us having signed up to the social chapter. The Foreign Secretary was quite explicit about that. He said that it was not a concession for us to sign the social chapter, that it was not something that we were giving to our partners, that it was not giving them an advantage in comparison with the previous position. That is a most extraordinary position to take.
Even if one is persuaded that, on balance, it is better to be party to the social chapter, it was clear that signing it gave our partners some control and influence over
working practices in this country which they did not have before and in return for which any half-decent negotiator would have wanted some form of concession. None was found; none was sought.
A few years ago, I had the great honour of being an adviser to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe, the shadow Foreign Secretary, when he was Secretary of State for Employment at the time the social chapter was initially considered as possibly being part of the Maastricht treaty. I cannot believe that the advice that we received from officials then has changed since. That advice was that, if qualified majority voting were granted under the social chapter to what I believe are called "working conditions", anything could go through under that; the European Court and the Commission would hold that virtually anything relating to strikes, industrial relations or any other measures in the social chapter could take place under "working conditions".
I see some Government Members shaking their heads. No doubt they are thinking that there is language in the social chapter that specifically exempts strikes and industrial relations, but the legal advice six or seven years ago from officials in the Department of Employment was that, if we signed the social chapter, QMV on working conditions meant QMV on everything.
The only argument in defence of our signature to the social chapter that the Foreign Secretary could advance was that the Confederation of British Industry was in favour of it in some way. He gave the direct implication that the CBI was in favour of signing the social chapter and that it had gained something because it was now, as part of the COREPER--Committee of Permanent Representatives--process, part of the European social process. But the CBI is against a British signature to the social chapter.
We on the Conservative Benches have regularly been lectured in the past two or three weeks about why we should listen to the CBI on Europe. Again, that rule does not seem to apply to Labour when in government. As I pointed out to the Foreign Secretary--a point that he was not able to answer--as recently as the end of last week, the CBI's business briefing said that the Government's guarantees on works councils did not hold water, because the issue would be dealt with by QMV under the social chapter.
Mrs. Browning:
Is my hon. Friend aware that the CBI has described the social chapter as an empty revolver, saying that once the Government had signed up to it, anything could be put in? It would be simply an empty chamber from which they could fire as much as they liked.
Mr. Collins:
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The Government should not pretend that their signature on the social chapter has the support of British businesses. It does not. To say otherwise would be to mislead the House--no doubt inadvertently.
We should consider some of the provisions in the Bill. We have already heard a detailed examination of the provisions relating to subsidiarity. The Foreign Secretary laid great stress on those provisions, but it could be argued that the new provisions are worse than the old ones in the Maastricht treaty. The new subsidiarity provisions are
explicitly made subject to the acquis communautaire, which means that the hope that we once held that subsidiarity would allow the repeal of existing European regulations cannot be fulfilled. There will be no change to any powers, directives or measures that have already been passed to Brussels or by Brussels.
What else is in the treaty? We have heard about measures on common foreign and security policy. There are some dangers in the move--albeit limited--towards qualified majority voting on foreign and security policy. It may relate only, as the treaty now says, to the implementation of policy areas in which unanimous agreement had previously been established, but let us think what that might mean. Reaching a unanimous agreement among the Foreign Ministers that Saddam Hussein should be dealt with, that there should be peace in eastern Europe or that stability in certain parts of Africa is desirable would be easy, but the devil is in the detail of how such specific and important objectives should be achieved. We should not accept, even in a limited way, that a nation's foreign policy can be dictated by other nations.
At the beginning of his speech, the Foreign Secretary said that one of the great triumphs of the treaty of Amsterdam was that it had secured two of the great aspects of the nation--borders and defence policy, because of the reference to NATO. Surely foreign policy and decisions on taxes, spending and interest rates are equally important, if not more important, in defining the core of a nation. The treaty makes it possible for the first time for aspects of foreign policy to be decided against the will of a European Union Government. The Government also say that there is no constitutional bar to membership of a single currency. That is bizarre.
The Government are pretending to stand up for the British nation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) pointed out, they have a manifesto pledge to work for a Europe of independent nation states, but step by step, quiver by quiver, they are giving more power to Europe in a way that ultimately can only be incompatible with a system of independent nation states.
I find it disturbing that the Government seem to have no sense of an end point to European integration. It has been put to Conservative Members that, because we have signed up to previous extensions of qualified majority voting, to transfers of sovereignty to Brussels and to greater pooling, we must be in favour of it for ever and a day. That is rather like the unedifying spectacle of the delinquent child down the centuries caught committing an offence in the playground and saying to the teacher, "But please, sir, he did it first." Saying that someone else has done it first is not a sufficient justification for any action. An action has to stand on its own merits.
We accept that there may be a case for some matters being determined by qualified majority voting, but it does not necessarily follow that all matters must be determined in that way. There must be a point at which we stop. The Conservatives have been clear about that. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said in his speech to the party conference that he believed that there were limits to European integration and that we were close to those limits. We have stood out in favour of extensions to qualified majority voting in the past, but we are not in favour of any more. That is why we have drawn a line in the sand with the position that we stated in our
manifesto--a position that we shall be pursuing consistently later tonight. We are not in favour of any more extensions of qualified majority voting.
The Government clearly favour some more extensions. They favour those in the treaty of Amsterdam. How many other extensions are they in favour of? We know that the treaty will result in yet another intergovernmental conference in a few years. How much further does the ratchet go? How much more salami slicing will there be? Is there a point at which the Government will say that there might be a few things left that should be reserved for the British Parliament and the British nation--perhaps organising tiddlywinks tournaments?
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