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The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Far too many private conversations are going on, especially near the Chair. I am finding it difficult to follow the debate.

Mr. Horam: As I was saying, the time that the Parliamentary Counsel would need to devote the necessary attention to detail could not be justified. The Minister has a problem: he knows that he could not produce a Bill, even if he wanted to.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley). Why not produce a draft Bill? The whole point of producing a Bill is that it is a necessary intellectual exercise, in which those involved must go into the minutiae. As has been said repeatedly, the devil is in the detail. The point is well made: as Disraeli said, if you have a good point repeat it, repeat it, repeat it. [Hon. Members: "Cliche."] Disraeli had some rather good cliches.

I am saying that, if it is possible to embark on the intellectual exercise that is necessary to produce a Bill, that will resolve some of the points about which people are concerned. After all, the Government are producing a draft Budget next week or thereabouts. That process is normally shrouded in secrecy, as was pointed out by the previous Chancellor, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke).

It is extraordinary that the Government should produce a draft Budget dealing with a subject that is renowned for secrecy, but should not produce a draft Bill dealing with a

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subject on which there should be consultation--on which, indeed, consultation is taking place. They have got themselves into an absurdly illogical position. That is one suggestion: the Government should commit themselves to producing at least a draft Bill, while not committing themselves to a final Bill. After all, the Minister knows that he cannot do that.

I want to be helpful to the Minister. I hope that I am being helpful. Even if he cannot do that, he could, this evening, give some clothing to the White Paper proposals that he may produce. Can he tell us exactly what a White Paper would cover? My hon. Friends the Members for South Cambridgeshire and for Mole Valley(Sir P. Beresford) mentioned planning. Planning is a major consideration when a new body is being put into an existing arrangement in which there are several London boroughs, government of London organisations and, indeed, the Government themselves. Problems will occur because of the sheer complexity of the proposals, and it would be sensible to deal with those problems in detail now.

The Government should address the concerns of hon. Members and the citizens of London by spelling out this evening how the White Paper will be structured. Can the Minister give us more information about the chapters that it will contain and the headings that it will cover? Will it contain the detail that we would expect from a proper White Paper? That would assuage some of my doubts about the excessive room for manoeuvre that he has given himself, which we suspect will be exploited as usual by the spin doctors. The House will be given the minimum information that is consistent with parliamentary adequacy, and the people of London will not be given the detailed information they need to make a valid judgment on the Government's proposals.

6.30 pm

That lack of information is one of the reasons why the response to the consultation was so pathetic. Only 1,200 people responded, many of whom may be opposed to the proposals. As we know from an earlier intervention, one of those responses came from my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), so perhaps there were 1,201 responses out of 7 million people in London, including 5 million electors.

Mrs. Gorman: Does that not suggest that the people of London are far too canny to want to be lumbered with this great expense? We are signing a blank cheque, and it may turn out that there is not enough interest in the proposal to go ahead with it. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that we should not allow the same to happen with this proposal for London as happened with the Welsh referendum? Only 20 or 25 per cent. of the people in Wales showed any interest, whereas the Government talk about the result as if it were a great victory for them.

Mr. Horam: I agree with my hon. Friend. The Minister has a problem. He is linking the referendum to the elections on 7 May, in the hope that it will boost the turnout and will conceal the fact that people are not as keen on his proposals as he wants them to be. He has an interest in having a real debate about the proposals.

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It is no good resting on a consultation process that yields 1,200 responses. If my calculations are correct, that is 0.0002 per cent. of the people and institutions of London.

Mr. Pickles: Does my hon. Friend realise that that take-up is less than the average double glazing salesman gets?

Mr. Horam: I do not know whether 0.0002 per cent. is the proportion of London Labour Members present in the Chamber at the moment. I noticed that the hon. Members for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) and for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) briefly appeared, no doubt so that their names would appear in the debate, but suddenly vanished. They said that 2 per cent. was an unacceptable figure. The Minister would be delighted with 2 per cent., given that only 0.0002 per cent. responded to his overtures.

The Minister has a responsibility to the House to flesh out this evening the ground that he proposes to cover.

Mr. Raynsford: I shall do so.

Mr. Horam: I am getting nice smiles from the Minister. My hon. Friends will want to intervene in his speech to find out what ground he will cover in the promised White Paper, when he intends to publish it and when we will have some clear-cut proposals that the people of London can debate.

Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury): I do not want to speak for long, but I believe that a fundamental issue is at stake. As this is a matter of such importance, it is extraordinary that people in Scotland, Wales and now in London are being asked to vote merely on the principle, and not on any details. It is odd that referendums come before legislation. These referendums have major constitutional implications. Expenditure matters will have to be considered, and powers will have to be shifted from one body to another.

The public are concerned about the honesty of politicians. I am a new Member, and I have noticed a great deal of dishonesty. The way in which the Government have behaved since they took office is not as the electorate might have expected. There have been betrayals. Many Labour supporters refer to the Government's U-turns as betrayals. They have made U-turns on tuition fees, cold weather payments and tobacco advertising.

The people of London will be asked to vote on a proposal about which they know very little. The last time they were in office, the Labour Government had their fingers burned, because they proposed legislation before the referendums and could not get their business through the House.

The name of the London authority also raises an issue of honesty. It is now to be the Greater London authority, whereas in the past it was the Greater London council. Are the Government frightened to go back to that august body, or is this change of name yet another smokescreen?

More particularly, I want to know exactly what the authority will do. Will it be yet another tier of bureaucracy? From my travels around my constituency and throughout the country, it is clear that people are tired of politicians and of government, yet the Government

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want to create further tiers of bureaucracy and more levels of government throughout the kingdom. These proposals have many more constitutional implications.

Where will the balance of power lie between existing London authorities and the new authority? What will be the division of power? What will the new mayor of this great authority do? Will he be powerful or not? Will he chair council meetings, and if so, which ones?

Mrs. Gorman: Who will serve on the authority? As I understand it, there will be some well-paid jobs in the assembly. I have heard that the lord mayor will be paid about £100,000. What will happen to the district councils if people flock to serve on the new authority? District authorities are established bodies which handle local issues, but they may be undermined.

Mr. Robertson: My hon. Friend is right. No one has any idea what will happen.

Sir Paul Beresford: My hon. Friend may like to ask for a small pause in our discussions, as there is no one on the Government Front Bench. The Liberal Democrats and the Government are arranging a stitch-up beyond the Bar.

Mr. Robertson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but, as there is now someone on the Government Front Bench, I shall continue.

I cannot answer the questions that I have posed. It is up to the Government to explain to the House and to the people of London the role of the new authority and the mayor, and how that will affect the role of district authorities. If a £100,000 salary is to be paid, many people will be asking how they can become mayor of this great body.

As the Government get into further difficulties, they start to retreat into themselves. I advise them not to keep putting up smokescreens, because it is not doing them any good.

On a wider constitutional issue, the Government should explain to the people of London and to the House whether they are creating yet another region of Europe. There will be some sort of government in Scotland and Wales, and the Government have not yet published their plans for regional government in England. Will the Greater London authority be yet another of those regions? That would have important implications. These matters should be explained not in a White Paper, but in full legislation before the people of London are asked to vote on it.

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