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Mrs. Gorman: I speak from experience as a councillor and as someone who is not a lover of referendums. In fact, I am not a lover of extra government, because I think that we should have the least possible government. If the Opposition's role is to give more power back to the individual, the less government we have the better. We should not take powers away from the individual and give them to central bodies.
One of the things I do to keep in touch with London, and with London opinion, is a little radio programme on Sunday mornings with the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone), who is no longer in his place. That is declared in the Register of Members' Interests. We invite people from London to telephone about matters that worry them. The radio programme enables us to find out much
more about the views of Londoners than we are ever likely to discover through the referendum. People worry about law and order, but, of course, there are already strategic bodies such as the police and the fire service to deal with such matters. Therefore, the new authority need not become involved in that.
People worry about their dustbins being regularly emptied and about the cleanliness of their streets. Those functions are carried out fairly effectively, certainly in the Conservative boroughs in London, although I cannot say the same for Camden and Islington, where the streets are filthy and the rates are such that most people try to leave them. They certainly send their children to school outside those boroughs. People are worried about education in London, but I do not think that there will be any suggestion of the new body taking over council powers, because the councils will fight like hell to keep them.
It might be a good idea to take the power to control schools away from many London boroughs whose schools are atrocious. The rare exceptions are Wandsworth and Westminster. They run good schools, but, of course, they have Conservative administrations.
People worry about transport and roads.
The Second Deputy Chairman:
Order. The hon. Lady is embarking on a Second Reading speech. The debate is tightly drawn and deals with the date of the referendum.
Mrs. Gorman:
Thank you for reminding me of that, Mr. Lord.
Londoners have strong views, and offering them a blank cheque referendum will not let us know whether they want a detailed say. The referendum question will require just a yes or no and the Government owe it to the people of London to say that, if not enough of them vote in the referendum, they will not proceed beyond it. I should like to hear the Minister's view on that, because there has been little response.
We must take account of the serious difficulties that arise with another layer of government. That will be evident on planning issues. Such strategic matters should be reflected in the information that the Government give to people before the referendum. If it is not, people will be voting for a pig in a poke. If people are not told what the authority involves, they will not know whether they want it. The Minister must deal with some of those issues or we shall be debating nothing more than bread and circuses. We have had a blank cheque, a pig in a poke, bread and circuses and the devil in the detail. The new authority may be an abomination.
Before Londoners are asked to decide on the issue, they must know that if not enough of them take an interest in it in the first place the Government will take note of that. I am putting to the Minister the matters that Londoners are interested in enough to phone up about on a Sunday morning after breakfast and before they get down to cooking the lunch. I have used this opportunity to pass that information on. I know that my hon. Friends back me in calling for information, and I hope that the Minister will deal with these important matters.
Mr. Flight:
I should like to deal in more detail with the point that I put to my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles). The referendum is self-evidently to endorse Government proposals. What
It is not good enough to seek a blank cheque. [Interruption.] Labour Members find that funny. It is a jolly good cliche, but if they damage the City of London they will find it difficult to get cheques out of anybody. The referendum is about the future of London and the most important part of our economy. If the Government wish properly to consult people, they must advise people of their proposals about that most important part of London. There is no reason why the proposals cannot be set out in detail in a draft Bill or a proper Bill with adequate time for digestion before the referendum. The referendum should not be held until these matters have been resolved.
Mr. Raynsford:
The debate has been protracted and not entirely illuminating. I was frequently reminded of literary images of conversations among a group of dead souls who were endlessly repeating the same cliches--how they tripped off their tongues--and trying to reassure themselves that the world had not changed on 1 May. The world did change, and the Conservatives are in opposition. Labour is in government and we have positive proposals to give the people of London the right once again to determine who governs their city.
The Conservative party took away from the people of London the democratic right to elect their own citywide authority. [Hon. Members: "Get on with it."] I am getting on with it, and if Opposition Members will bear with me they will hear a few simple facts about their party's record when it was in power.
We take no lessons from Conservatives about the exercise of democracy. They did not believe in consulting Londoners before abolishing the GLC. They did not make proposals for draft Bills or other constitutional innovations to allow people an opportunity to test their proposals before they abolished the GLC. The Conservative party did not publish anything before producing a paving Bill which, using their majority, they rammed through the House. The people of London had no say. It is pure hypocrisy for Conservative Members to suggest that what we are doing is undemocratic.
Sir Paul Beresford:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Raynsford:
No. The Government are committed to ensuring--[Interruption.]
The Second Deputy Chairman:
Order.
Mr. Raynsford:
Thank you, Mr. Lord. I have listened for approximately an hour and a half to a protracted
The Government are committed to ensuring that the people of London have full information about our proposals before they vote in the referendum on whether they wish to have a new strategic Greater London authority comprising a directly elected mayor and a separately elected assembly. We have already demonstrated our commitment to full public consultation. Within three months of coming into office, we published a Green Paper. We circulated many copies of the summary version of it. There has been extensive media coverage and a substantial response to the Green Paper. We received more than 1,200 responses, and they are still coming in after the consultation closure date, which has meant that it has taken some time to analyse the responses to 61 questions.
I put it to Conservative Members and to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes), who first made the point, which many of them repeated, that putting out a newsletter--which probably asks the electorate whether they endorse the hon. Gentleman's actions in relation to a popular issue such as repairing council houses--will almost certainly elicit a good and positive response, but he will probably understand that the responses to 61 questions are not necessarily as simple as those to his question.
Mr. Simon Hughes:
I do not intend to protract my comments, but, as an exercise in democracy, I am happy to tell the Minister that our surveys had four pages of questions--I concede that they were not all answered--and that that produced 5,000 or 6,000 answers, so I still think that the Government could have done a bit better in relation to responses from Londoners.
Mr. Raynsford:
I am not going to enter a debate with the hon. Gentleman about the wordiness of Liberal Democrats' literature and the number of questions that they pose. I will say only that we have had a full and comprehensive response from a wide range of London organisations and individual Londoners. We are analysing those comments carefully because many valuable contributions have been made in the consultation. We take that seriously and we will pay good heed to it before we produce our final proposals.
Mr. Lansley:
The Minister makes the point about the previous Government's consultation, or lack of consultation as he alleges, but perhaps he will be able to help me, because my memory is not as good as his. I recall a White Paper on London, I think in 1994, which was published by my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), when he was Secretary of State for the Environment, and which sought widespread consultation. Perhaps the Minister can tell the House now or at an early opportunity how many responses there were to that consultation.
6.45 pm
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