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Mr. Burstow: I am grateful to the Minister for the reassurance that she has offered, in her confirmation of the additional resources that will be granted to enable the counts to be expedited, and in her comments that no political influence will be brought to bear on the conduct of the counts. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Ottaway:
I beg to move amendment No. 29, in page 2, line 19, at end insert--
The Chairman:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 30, in page 2, line 19, at end insert--
Mr. Ottaway:
These two amendments would have the important effect of imposing a threshold, before a valid referendum result was achieved, of 50 per cent. for turnout and 30 per cent. for saying yes. We want reform and we recognise that there is a case for a mayor for London. We want a mayor and we want an assembly, but we want an assembly of a different composition from that proposed by the Government. We want an assembly in which the boroughs are more involved. We want the thinking to come from the bottom up and to involve people from the boroughs on a formal basis. We are opposed to the Government's thinking that GLA policy will pass from the Government down to the assembly.
We accept that the Government are unlikely to adopt our proposals, given their majority. However, whatever is decided, the assembly must have legitimacy. The verdict, whatever it is, must be widely supported by Londoners. It will be valid, in our judgment, only if 50 per cent. of London's voters go to the polls. That is a critical figure, because if that threshold is not reached, the majority of Londoners will not have expressed an opinion in the referendum. Accepting the amendment will be the only way for the Government to send a signal to Londoners to reassure them that the changes proposed will have a strong mandate.
The referendum is a test of public opinion and it is essential that the outcome on 7 May is decisive, conclusive and final. It is equally essential that the answer comes from the majority. It is reasonable and right that the arrangements for the referendum send the signal that change cannot happen unless some 2.5 million of London's voters actually vote. The arrangements should ensure that if that turnout is not reached, the changes should not happen. If the voters stay at home, their silence should signal rejection. The Government should not be able to proceed and declare the referendum a success unless it receives that essential mandate.
We require a second threshold. A minimum of 30 per cent. of the voters should say yes. That would mean that 1.5 million out of London's 5 million voters would say yes. London has 7 million residents and it would be wrong to claim a mandate if fewer than 1.5 million of them had voted yes. That would be unacceptable. The Minister has claimed a mandate, based on the turnout in the general election and, according to my research in the Library, 1.6 million people voted for the Labour party in London. If he is not so sure that those 1.6 million people will vote for him again, why on earth should not he accept the amendment? If they do not turn out to vote, it will be a sign of disapproval.
Is the Minister saying that those people turned out at the general election but are not inclined to do so for his proposals for a Greater London authority? If so, he is
wrong to claim that he has a mandate for his proposals. Anything less than those 1.6 million votes will show disapproval and rejection by the electorate. The referendum should not go ahead with so little support.
After all, what does the Minister have to lose? Frankly, he will lose his credibility and his mandate. Failure to accept the amendments will show a loss of confidence on his part and will be an admission that he is frightened to test public opinion. Indeed, it will be a contempt of the democratic process. The Prime Minister is on the record as saying that he is not a great proponent of government by referendum, so the Minister should be keen to persuade him that he is wrong and that the people of London will turn out in their millions to support his proposals.
Mr. Ottaway:
The Minister says that they will; is he saying that 1.5 million will turn out? He is uncharacteristically silent on that point. He should be keen to allay the Prime Minister's fears. If he cannot demonstrate that the people of London will turn out in their millions, he should accept the amendment and send the right signal to the Prime Minister and to Londoners.
By accepting our proposals the Government would effectively be saying, "If enough of you want reform, you should have it; if you stay at home, we get the message."
Mr. Burstow:
We oppose the amendments. We do not believe that there is a need for a threshold. It is also important to put it on the record that no one on either side of the argument should be able to suborn and claim those people who do not vote in the referendum. We must ensure that we have a debate that enthuses people enough to make them go and cast their votes. We must remove the barriers that stop people exercising their democratic right to make a choice.
Liberal Democrat Members disagree fundamentally with the Government about the question that they have decided should be put to the people of London, but we believe that it is important to have a campaign that gets people to go out and cast their votes. I hope that it will become clearer, when the White Paper is published, exactly what powers will really reside with the authority. That, as the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) said in our first day in Committee, is what will really enthuse people.
People want to know what difference the London authority will make to their lives. That is what we need to communicate. Thresholds are not an answer; they are a device proposed by a party with no sympathy with the idea of a referendum in the first place: as Conservative Members said earlier today, when they had a mandate they abolished the Greater London council without the need for a referendum. That is why I and my party do not support the idea of thresholds.
Mr. Brooke:
The Minister for London has heard me saying on two previous occasions that I canvassed for 120 hours on the doorsteps of my constituency in the
My parliamentary neighbour, the hon. Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck), said on Second Reading that they talk of nothing else in her constituency, although I acknowledge that she said that that involved the time since the general election campaign, as well as the campaign itself.
The royal borough--the Chelsea authority--is separated from the City of Westminster by the River Westbourne, which now flows underground. I am separated from the constituency of the hon. Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North by a series of Westbourne roads. I find it puzzling that there should be such divergence between the casual conversations in our two constituencies.
In the schedule stand part debate, the Minister for London said that I would not expect the Government to come up with an unworkable suggestion; I certainly would not. I earlier quoted his remarks at column 416 last Wednesday to the effect that the Government would make absolutely sure that they proposed something that would work and, as he knows, I have enormous trust and confidence in him. I hope that he will have the same trust and confidence in the people of London, and will expect them to turn out to vote.
In those circumstances, the Minister for London should accept the amendment. If he does not, perhaps his confidence in the vote in the referendum is not so great as I previously imagined. In that case, I would begin to wonder whether his proposal for a Greater London authority, in the form that he has advocated, might not be as strong as he has sought to persuade us that it is.
Ms Glenda Jackson:
Whether the right hon. Gentleman says something three times or 30 times, it is always well worth hearing, but on this occasion I disagree with his argument. It would perhaps be churlish to suggest that the GLA was never mentioned in those hundreds of hours of campaigning because the driving force for so many people, not only in London but throughout the country, was to get rid of the incumbent Conservative Government.
'(4A) The Chief Counting Officer shall not certify the total of votes cast for each answer under subsection (4) above unless at least 50 per cent. of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have voted'.
'(4B) The Chief Counting Officer shall not certify the total of votes cast for each answer under subsection (4) above unless at least 30 per cent. of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have voted in favour of the government's proposals'.
"What I tell you three times is true"--
and that during that entire time not one person asked me about a Greater London authority and strategic government in London. Incidentally, in that time I did not see one canvasser for or representative of any party other than mine, which is perhaps why I am sitting here today.
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