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Clause 4
Mr. Ottaway: I beg to move amendment No. 31, in clause 4, page 2, line 26, after 'shall', insert
'subject to subsection (1A) below,'.
The Chairman: With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 32, in page 2, line 26, at end insert--
'(1A) The polls at the referendum shall be open from 7 a.m. until 10 p.m.'
Mr. Ottaway: This simple amendment proposes that the hours for the referendum should be extended to between 7 am and 10 pm. Those are the same hours that we use for general elections and, in our judgment, this issue is of similar importance. The proposed arrangements are that the polls open from 8 am to 9 pm. Plenty of people work before 8 am or come back after 9 pm and they will have difficulty getting to polls during this period. London is the international commercial centre of the world, with people working long hours substantial distances from their homes. Some of them travel for perhaps an hour each way from one side of London to the other to earn their crust. It could cause difficulties if this important issue is dealt with during the polling hours of 8 am to 9 pm. I anticipate that the Minister will say that it is impractical to have the referendum from 7 am to 10 pm while the boroughs are voting from 8 am to 9 pm. The logical response to that is, "If that is the case, change the date of the referendum." She may say in response to that suggestion, "But that will add to the expense." Of course, the last refuge in these circumstances is to raise the question of cost.
The Minister will note that the clear financial memorandum suggests that the cost of having the referendum on 7 May 1998 is £3 million, and the cost of having the referendum on another date is £5 million. Therefore, the cost of moving the referendum to another day will be £2 million. Some might say that that is a lot for an issue such as this. Others might say that, in the history of London, £2 million is not such a big sum. In truth, it is what the GLC spent every eight hours in its heyday in the 1980s. I hope that the Minister will accept that it is not an extraordinary sum of money and that it is possible to devise a system whereby polling hours reflect the working conditions of many people. I hope that she will be able to accept the amendment.
Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton): I support the amendment. We opposed the amendments on thresholds, which we felt gave the election artificial legitimacy. I am sure that the Government are keen to give the election legitimacy through the turnout. The Liberal Democrats believe that the amendment would increase the turnout, which is to be welcomed. One of the objections to the amendment is that polling hours for local government elections are from 8 am to 9 pm. There are solutions to that practical problem. One way would be to issue referendum ballot papers during the hours when local government elections are not held. My office has contacted the returning officer in my borough, who believes that there would be no problem dealing with that practical difficulty. An alternative solution would be to extend the hours of the local government elections. I believe that polling stations should be open longer for local government elections. They are important elections: some people consider them to be more important than elections to the House. There is a strong case for extending the hours for local government elections. The case for extending the polling hours for the referendum is even stronger, because of its constitutional significance and the importance of encouraging as high a turnout as possible. I am sure that, when right hon. and hon. Members have campaigned in local and other elections, they have had to encourage voters to participate in the democratic process. Late at night, just before the polls close, some people find reasons not to turn out to vote. By extending the hours, we will negate their arguments. We all have anecdotes to tell of people who feel unable to vote during the hours when local government elections are held. The hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway) mentioned the problem of working hours. We live in a society in which people have long, extended working hours. It is difficult for some people to get to the polls between 8 am and 9 pm. The amendment would enable those people to participate, which would secure a much greater mandate for the Government's proposals. There is another strong argument in favour of the amendment. The Government allowed extended hours in the referendums in Scotland and Wales. Londoners should be given the same rights. It is interesting to note that the report of the Hansard Society entitled "Election Campaigns", issued in September 1991, asks why we do not have the same polling hours for all types of elections. It is an interesting question, and I hope that, if the Minister
is not prepared to accept the amendment, she will justify the reason for having different polling hours for different elections. Other bodies have reported on the same issue. The report of the Commission for Local Democracy, entitled "Taking Charge: The rebirth for Local Democracy", says that there is no good reason for the difference, and proposes that extended hours should apply to local government as well as to parliamentary elections. I believe that extended hours should also apply to referendums, and we have an excellent chance to make that change now. The Committee may also want to take note of the fact that, when a local government election is taking place at the same time as a parliamentary or a European election, the polling hours are extended for both elections. If that can be done for parliamentary and European elections, why can it not be done for a referendum? It seems extraordinary that referendums are the only exception. The Minister may find my final reason for extending the polling hours even more powerful. This is the second day in Committee, and no amendments have been accepted so far. Some concessions have been made, and the Government have given some undertakings, but they have not accepted any amendments. There may well be a hidden agenda. The Government may not want a Report stage. My hon. Friend the Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) made a strong point to Madam Speaker earlier today. I was not present, but I believe that she was quite concerned, because the Government had already set the timetable for this week's business and had assumed that there would not be a Report stage. They second-guessed the House. The Government Whips may want to question that, but Madam Speaker was very concerned that there would not be a Report stage this week. If only to curry favour with Madam Speaker, Ministers should accept the amendments in the spirit of cross-party co-operation.8.15 pm
Mr. Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey). He is absolutely right. The Minister for London and Construction is no longer in his place: no doubt he has gone to a darkened room to calm down after the excesses of not accepting any reasoned amendments.
There is a good case for accepting the amendment. A more regular system of referendums is being put into operation: this is unlikely to be the last referendum. We need to be flexible about when voting should take place. After all, the current polling hours have not been set in stone. They were changed in the 1970s principally to recognise different work patterns. We no longer live in a world where people work from 9 to 5: they now work different shifts. People start early, especially in London. London has adopted a method of working that is a little ahead of the rest of the country. People who work in the City and in the money exchanges arrive early in the morning, as do cleaners. By not extending the polling times, we are denying those people the franchise.
I am pleased to see the Minister for London and Construction back in his place. It is important for the Government to show that they are prepared to listen to
reasoned debate. If they refuse to accept any amendment, and to listen to any argument, the whole purpose of this debate is negated.
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst):
Was my hon. Friend as struck as I was by the Minister's revelation--I think that that is not too strong a word--that it was deemed necessary to extend the polling hours for the referendums in Scotland and Wales? Has my hon. Friend reflected on why London is apparently expected to vote in a referendum on one basis, whereas the Scots and the Welsh were able to vote on an entirely different basis? Does that not throw new light on the matter? I should be grateful for my hon. Friend's thoughts on that matter.
Mr. Pickles:
My hon. Friend should also bear in mind the fact that the population of London is larger than the populations of Scotland and Wales combined. That emphasises the fact that there is another agenda. When we began the debate, we thought that having the referendum on the same day would artificially increase the number of people voting in the local government elections. It quickly became apparent that we had misjudged the Government, because it had nothing to do with that. They were frightened that there would not be much of a turnout for a separate referendum. The amendment would provide them with a way to increase the number of people who vote in the referendum. There is nothing to fear from democracy.
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