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The Chairman: I call Ms Glenda Jackson.
The Chairman: Order. I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I keep missing him, but it is not deliberate.
Mr. Brooke: I am fielding at backward short leg, Sir Alan. I apologise.
The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) has done us all a service, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) testified, by drawing our attention to the fact that the Government's proposals for the referendum in London are less attractive, less generous and less satisfactory than the arrangements in Scotland and Wales.
I am half Welsh--indeed, I am more Welsh than anything else. I do not remember the precise terms of the Government's sloganeering in the Welsh referendum, but I recall it being something like, "Don't let Wales be left behind." Given the powers that are to be given to the Assembly in Wales, I am not in the least surprised that the people of Wales in the end demonstrated what they thought of the Government's proposals by the narrowness of the majority, which was contrary to all the Government's expectations.
Although I have testified to my Welshness, I am more a Londoner, by definition, than I am anything else. I profoundly resent London being treated less generously than Scotland and Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar referred to working patterns in London, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway).
If one takes the employed population and divides it by 659, the average number of people working in each constituency of this land is 37,500. Each day, my constituency has the privilege of receiving 750,000 working people, which is 20 times the national average. By the nature of things, a significant number of those people are less likely to be able to vote as a result of the voting hours that have been declared. My constituency constitutes between 20 and 25 per cent. of the entire employment of Greater London. The people who make that journey to work in the heart of the capital might be regarded as the essence of Londonness. I am disappointed that, unless the hon. Lady is about to accept the amendment, we are to be treated as a second-class city.
Mr. Simon Hughes:
I must say just a sentence or two in support of the amendment [Hon. Members: "Only a sentence."] The arguments are so strong that I felt they needed only a sentence or two in support.
The Minister may say that, because it is likely that the local elections will be held on the same day--Liberal Democrat Members have supported the idea that they should be on the same day--to facilitate an early referendum, it would be complicated to have the extended hours. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) made clear--he was clearly supported around the Chamber--if the option is a lesser or a greater number of hours and if we are doing something on the same day that London has not done before but Scotland and Wales have done, there must be a logic in opting for both elections to have the longer hours. There is no disadvantage to the electors or to the constitutional and democratic nature of the result.
I hope that the Government will accept the argument. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton said, that would allow them to show that they are willing not merely to listen to arguments but to accept them. That is very different from listening to but rejecting every argument, as they have done so far.
Ms Glenda Jackson:
I wonder that the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) bothers to ask a question, as he seems to know what my reply is to be. I hope that an element of my response will cause him some surprise.
Certainly for the first time in my experience, the right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) presented himself as a character of somewhat schizophrenic nature. He began his contribution by saying that he was more Welsh--he did not define precisely whom he was more Welsh than--and went on to say that he was more a Londoner than many Londoners. As I thought that we had established a neighbourly connection by virtue of our constituencies being contiguous and our histories being inextricably linked with Birkenhead, I was disappointed that he failed to touch on our connections with the north-west of England.
The hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) said that there was a strong case for accepting the amendments. If there is, he certainly did not present it. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) said that the hours for the London referendum were unfair, given the hours allowed for the similar referendums in Scotland and Wales--I am paraphrasing and I am sure that he will forgive me. That
point made before--I believe on Second Reading--to rebut that argument was that there were huge physical distances in the countries of Scotland and Wales. Both have a much more dispersed electorate than London. Although London is large and comprises millions of people, it is much more homogenous in an electoral sense--it is much easier for people to get to the polling booths and for votes to be returned for counting.
Mr. Edward Davey:
The geographical aspect is irrelevant to this point; it is the working hours that matter. The working patterns of Londoners are diverse. Many Londoners commute not merely into the City and the constituency of the right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke), but out of London. They commute miles and miles--the length and breadth of the country. My brother, for example, is often in Leeds on business during the day. To be frank with the Minister, there is a large variety in commuting patterns, which presents an even stronger case for polling hours being even more extended in London.
Ms Jackson:
That point about the working hours and working patterns of Londoners was also made by the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway). That is undoubtedly the case, but if work precludes an individual from attending the polling booth, a postal vote will be available for this referendum, as it is for local and for general elections.
Mr. Pickles:
Is the hon. Lady saying that, because London is compact and so many people live here, the hours allocated for a general election are inappropriate?
Ms Jackson:
No, I have no recollection of having said that. My point was that the hon. Members for Kingston and Surbiton and for Croydon, South based their arguments for a change in the polling hours for the referendum on the work patterns of Londoners. I understood their argument to be that, because people start work earlier and finish later and may have long distances to travel to their places of employment, their lives would be facilitated if polling stations were open from 7 am until 10 pm. The point that I was making to rebut that argument was that postal votes would be available to people for the referendum as they are for local and general elections.
I am grateful for the opportunity that the amendments offer to clarify for the Committee the arrangements that we intend to put in place on referendum polling day.
Mr. Ottaway:
As justification for rejecting the amendment, the hon. Lady said that the postal vote provisions would compensate. Is she saying that hours of work and distances to be travelled across London are acceptable grounds for having a postal vote? If so, will she accept an amendment to that effect?
Ms Jackson:
It is my understanding that there is already a right within law to a postal vote because of the inability to be present at a polling station because of work. The hon. Member for Croydon, South looks perplexed. I am confident that what I am saying is correct, not least because I have exercised such a right on more than one occasion.
We will set out detailed arrangements for the combined poll in secondary legislation. We intend that the referendum poll should run from 8 am until 9 pm, alongside that for borough elections. Clearly, it makes sense with a combined poll for both to open and close at the same time. We do not believe that extending the hours for the referendum poll to run from 7 am until 10 pm would be in the interests of an efficient combined poll. A combined poll in which people could cast one vote but not another at certain times would be almost impossible to administer.
I have already touched on work commitments and the availability of postal votes. We want to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to exercise his or her democratic rights in both the referendum and the local elections. Extending the referendum would cost more, delay the count and provide little advantage in terms of increased turnout.
I hope that I have been able to explain to hon. Members how we intend to proceed and have allayed any concerns. I therefore ask the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Forth:
I am now more confused than I was to start with. The Minister prayed in aid the fact that, because Wales and Scotland have more dispersed populations, it is easier to get to polling stations and that, therefore, their circumstances differ from those of London. My knowledge of Scotland may be a little out of date, but things have not changed that much over the years. Actually, I spent a little time in Scotland over the summer break. I also have knowledge of Wales because I lived and worked there at one time.
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