| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Llew Smith (Blaenau Gwent): The Minister stated that he has kept a close eye on electoral reform over the past 30 years. I have kept a close eye on the document that he produced for the national executive of the Labour party a number of years ago. I shall not embarrass him by quoting from the document, but will he clarify two points? Is he in favour of proportional representation for election to the House of Commons? Following on from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), is my right hon. Friend now accepting that under a regional list system, Members of the European Parliament will not be accountable to their electorate?
Mr. Straw: I am not sure whether my hon. Friend was present for my opening remarks, when I think that I made it tolerably clear that I am not enthusiastic about proportional representation for Westminster elections. My hon. Friend would not embarrass me if he were to quote from the document that I produced some years ago, as my views on the subject have not changed. I have always accepted that electoral systems must be appropriate for the particular political institution to which they apply. We must consider the nature of the relationships that we are trying to establish and, for that reason, I am highly sceptical of any systems that move away from single-Member constituencies for the House of Commons. However, as I am seeking to explain, different considerations must be borne in mind in relation to the European Parliament.
Mr. William Cash (Stone): Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to explain why the Amsterdam treaty, which amends the European Union
treaty and which we shall be debating in a couple of days' time in Committee, contains a provision stating:
- "The European Parliament shall draw up a proposal for elections by direct universal suffrage in accordance with a uniform procedure in all Member States"--
- "or in accordance with principles common to all Member States."?
Mr. Straw: I do not accept that for a moment. The arrangements that we are putting in place--whether or not the hon. Gentleman agrees with them--are extremely similar, and in some cases identical, to those that are in place in the majority of other European countries.
Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase): May I try to make a helpful suggestion to my right hon. Friend? Many of us will be persuaded by his argument that, with regard to electoral systems, it is horses for courses, but many of us will not be persuaded by the argument that closed party lists on a regional basis are the right horse for this course.
When the proposal first came before the House exactly 20 years ago, in 1977, at a time when there was an arrangement between the Labour party and a previous incarnation of the Liberal Democrat party, the House was offered a free vote on the kind of system with which it would feel most happy. At a time when we are offering a referendum to choose an electoral system, and when there is genuine disagreement about the kind of system that we want for the European elections, I suggest that it would be appropriate to give the House a choice of proportional systems. That would allow us to meet our obligations, and to select a system with which the House would feel comfortable.
Mr. Straw:
Today we are implementing a manifesto commitment on which all Labour Members stood. I cannot speak for the Opposition--no doubt they are as divided on this as they are on other issues--but it is fair enough for us to stick to a whipped vote.
The vote in December 1977 was a hybrid. It was a whipped vote for the payroll vote, except that two members of the payroll were allowed a special dispensation to vote against the payroll, and other Members were able to enjoy a free vote. It is interesting to note that there are 60 Members still in the House from the more than 500 who voted in December 1977 on that matter. Two members of the current shadow Cabinet voted in favour of the proposition for a regional list system at that time. It will be interesting to see what they do this evening.
Let me deal with a point that had been raised and was implicit in the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright). I refer to the referendum on voting systems for Westminster.
I have long believed, as has the Labour party, that it is time to bring to a conclusion the arguments over which electoral system should apply to Westminster elections. The Government do not claim a monopoly of wisdom in that regard. We hope very shortly to be in a position to honour our manifesto commitment to establish an independent commission to consider what would be the best electoral system to adopt, if we are to move away from first past the post. After that, we intend to let the people decide in an entirely free vote on the system that should apply.
Let me deal with what the Bill does. It provides for elections to the European Parliament to be conducted using a proportionally based regional list system. The counting of the votes will be based on the "highest average" formula using the d'Hondt divisor. I intend to say a little more about divisors in a moment.
Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow):
As I came into the Chamber this evening, I received a ministerial reply from the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson), who stated:
Mr. Straw:
That is an enticing prospect. I await further advice, as Gibraltar is not my responsibility. The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are my responsibility, and I believe that Gibraltar is in a similar, but not the same, position. Gibraltar is a dependency under the Crown, but it is not part of the United Kingdom. It is the United Kingdom that is part of the European Union, not the dependencies. People who live on the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man do not have representation in the EU, even though they are clearly affected by decisions made by it.
Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills):
Will the Home Secretary return to the point made by the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright)? It was not part of the Labour party's manifesto to propose a closed list system. That is perhaps the most obnoxious feature of the proposed arrangement. Will the right hon. Gentleman address that matter?
Mr. Straw:
If the hon. Gentleman will be a little patient, I shall come to that and hope to provide some comfort, both to him and to my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase.
A list system is used to elect Members of the European Parliament in every other member state of the EU, apart from the Republic of Ireland. The particular simple list electoral system that the Bill would introduce is the same type of system as is used in France, Germany, Greece, Portugal and Spain, so nearly two thirds of EU citizens
already elect their MEPs in this way, and the figure would rise to over 70 per cent. if Britain also adopted that approach.
Under the Bill, the United Kingdom will be divided into regions. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will each constitute a single region. They will return eight, five and three MEPs respectively, as they do at present. Northern Ireland already elects its three MEPs using a proportional system--the single transferable vote. It works well there and appears to enjoy wide support, so we do not propose to change it.
England will continue to return 71 MEPs. It will be divided into nine regions. The regions, which are set out in schedule 2 to the Bill, will be the regions that are currently used by the Government offices for the regions. We have chosen those regions because they are well established and understood by the people who live in them. [Hon. Members: "Oh."] It is no good Opposition Members mocking the regions or their boundaries. In an effort to be ecumenical, I have chosen those regions because they were established by the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer). I hoped that there would be no suggestion of any fiddling of the boundaries, which were established by the previous Government, following clear geographical lines, and have been widely accepted.
Mr. Dale Campbell-Savours (Workington):
If, in a particular area such as Cumbria, people feel strongly that the MEP should be part of a northern regional arrangement, will there be some flexibility in the decisions that my right hon. Friend takes?
"We take seriously our responsibilities for Gibraltar within the EU."
I am sure that the Home Secretary recognises that there are 30,000 people in Gibraltar who, if my information is correct, are the only people in the entire European Union who do not have a vote in European elections. Given the present proposition that we should change to a regional system, it would seem simple to include Gibraltar in one of the new regions. I invite the Home Secretary to give the House an assurance that Gibraltarians will be given an opportunity to vote in the European Parliament elections in 1999.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |