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Mrs. Ewing: I shall check my fishing file.
Mr. Curry: The hon. Lady may well check her fishing file. I think that she will find that I had a particular
aversion to that terminology. The Home Secretary said that the system was the most appropriate for elections to the European Parliament because
- "MEPs' links with their constituents are not as close as those of MPs and the public, for the most part, lacks the detailed knowledge which would enable them to make an informed choice between candidates on a party's list;".
- "has the virtue of simplicity,"--
- "requiring voters only to put a single cross on the ballot paper".
Mr. Bermingham: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that such a system also destroys the chance of the individual? Unless voters can vote across a regional list and choose candidates of different parties and flavours, the individualistic person who is sometimes a breath of fresh air in politics--not the machine man--has no chance whatever.
Mr. Curry: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. The eccentric has always played an important role in politics and in defending constituents. If we moved to a machine-operated system, we would risk the quality of the people we elected, as well as the quality of the representation they offered to the electorate.
Clause 1(3)(2) states:
It is a recipe for either massive overkill or nothing whatever. I fear that it might well be the latter. Does the elector simply give up? Does the MEP disappear into cyberspace, leaving only a slowly vanishing dot behind?
We then come to by-elections. The Bill envisages the promotion of the next candidate on the list, unless, I presume, a single independent has been elected and that independent has to be replaced. The measure does not recognise the changing mood of the electorate, and it provides a lovely insurance policy for a party that happens to be in government. Politics needs what my party and all parties have felt from time to time--the sharp dose of purgative that by-elections give, reflecting the changing mood in the country.
Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray):
As you will appreciate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am disappointed that the amendment that I and my hon. Friends tabled has not been selected for debate, but I accept Madam Speaker's decision.
The Bill is about proportionality; I believe that all hon. Members recognise the importance of that principle. I doubt that there is a perfect system of proportional representation. I suspect that many hon. Members, like myself, have received countless letters from school or university students, asking their opinion on PR and the most effective way of introducing it.
I believe that the amendment that I tabled addressed the issue of proportionality. The idea that Scotland should have an additional seat in the next European elections is not new--indeed, we discussed it in 1993, when additional seats were being awarded to the United Kingdom as a whole.
When we discuss the principle of proportionality, it is important to consider Scotland's position. Ministers should read the debate in Committee on the 1993 European Parliamentary Elections Bill, in which the current Prime Minister argued a very strong case that there were three effective reasons why Scotland should have an additional seat. He accepted the strong geographical case for increased Scottish representation, asserted that Scotland was not currently over-represented, and rejected claims that such a move would be unacceptable from an English point of view. The Labour party saw fit to back our amendment in 1993, and I am interested to know the present Government's view, now that Labour has changed sides in the House.
At the end of that debate, the then shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, now the Minister for Film and Tourism, said:
The arguments that were propounded from both sides of the House must be debated and explored. A great deal has been made of the link between a Member of the European Parliament and his or her constituency; that link is important, but the House must examine its conscience on that subject. The first direct elections to the European Parliament were held in 1979, and for years many of us campaigned for a much closer link between MEPs and Members of Parliament, yet only in the past two or three years have we been able to telephone Brussels and Strasbourg directly and had access to fax machines, enabling us to receive material from MEPs and to forward material to them, making possible a real dialogue between the two institutions, which take so many decisions affecting our constituents.
The links between the House and the European Parliament are deplorable. MEPs continue to turn up in this place as "Strangers", and must wait in Central Lobby until their Member of Parliament meets them. Unlike every other Parliament in Europe, we have no effective joint committees.
When hon. Members use the link between the MEP and the constituency as an excuse to avoid the prospect of proportional representation in future elections, they fail to
take into account their past actions. The guilt lies especially with the Conservative party, which was in government for 18 years but did nothing to create a closer connection with European institutions.
It was ridiculous that I had to wait so long before it was possible for me to send material to my MEP in an envelope provided by the House of Commons with a European stamp on it, without having to pay out of my pocket, as I did for many years. I object not to the finance but to the fact that the House did not foster these contacts far earlier, and create a more effective link.
The links of the House with constituents are far from perfect. I hope that the Government will put that issue on their agenda and consider creating joint committees in which MEPs can join us in debates on the series of issues that we are discussing as we look to the next European elections and to a closer union and the expansion of the Union.
I say to hon. Members who speak about their fear of apparatchiks in Millbank, Smith square or, I suppose, North Charlotte street in Edinburgh, which is where my party's headquarters may be found, that the choice of candidates for a list system is a challenge to all the parties. Four or five people sitting in smoke-filled rooms--or, to be politically correct, non-smoke-filled rooms--must not decide the names on the list. We should have enough confidence in political party activists to allow them to help decide the candidates.
I know that that would be difficult for the Conservative party because, as we well know, it has undergone deliberations even on how it elects its leader, about how decisions are taken about the management or design of conferences, and on how individuals can introduce resolutions so that real debates take place at the party conference. Internal democracy in parties will be under scrutiny.
Mr. George Howarth
indicated assent.
Mrs. Ewing:
The Minister nods in approval. He must know from his experience at this year's Labour party conference that the apparatchiks did not always get the results they want in the national executive committee elections. This is where the right of each member of a party to help decide which names appear on the lists is extremely important. This is not a question of "control freaks"; it is about democracy within parties, and we must look at ourselves to choose the best way to proceed.
The right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir B. Mawhinney) suggested that the Government were considering holding elections for the European Parliament on a Sunday. May I make a particular plea against that thought, if that is what it is at the moment?
My constituency lies in the Highlands and Islands European constituency, and we do not even count on a Sunday. It is a fairly nail-biting process waiting from the close of the poll at 10 pm on a Thursday until Monday before we get on with the count. That is done in recognition of the feelings of people in our area who have strong Sabbatarian views, and I am sure that there are many other areas in the United Kingdom where people would object to the concept of voting on a Sunday. It happens in continental Europe, but it has never been our practice in the United Kingdom, and I would makea special plea that it is not considered.
Secondly, the time scale of the legislation should be clarified. I have read the Charter 88 material. I have listened to the Home Secretary's interesting and erudite comments, the details of which I shall study when I have the Official Report tomorrow, because none of us would claim to understand all the niceties of what he was talking about. I welcome the possibility that he is considering a more open list rather than a closed list system, but it is important that we have a clear idea of the time scale.
The Home Secretary said that he expected the Bill to be on the statute book by October 1998. I am sure that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will appreciate that, in 1999, we in Scotland and Wales will also be facing elections for the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. In Scotland, we shall also have all our council elections because every seat is competed for in 1999. There may be a possibility of voter fatigue, but there may also be a possibility of political party fatigue.
It is important that we have a clear time scale to ensure that all the mechanisms are in place; we need to have more than just a vague promise that October 1998 is the deadline--that leaves little time for those of us who are involved in the work of the elections. The pressure on the democratic body politic will be immense over the next 18 months, and I seek further clarification on that.
I now turn to the financing of the elections and the campaigns. We shall come to the money resolution later, but there is to be no debate on it. When I intervened on the Home Secretary, he said that he was part of a listening Government. It is important, in all the regions of England and in Wales and Scotland, where individual campaigns will be run by the parties on behalf of their policies, that we know what the expenditure levels can be.
For example, will Scotland and Wales have separate budgets for the campaigns, with all parties being equal, or will we have to face additional expenditure from Millbank or Smith square on behalf of the Labour and Conservative parties that will be seen as state expenditure? If we are talking about proportionality and equality, the subject of finance in these elections is important. I hope--my party and I shall certainly make representations--that the Government will look seriously at that matter.
"A vote may be cast for a registered party, or an individual candidate, named on the ballot paper."
Are those exclusive choices? As the Bill is drafted, could an elector vote for a name on the party list? This is supposed to be an accessible system, but to whom does the poor constituent write? Does he stick a pin in the list of MEPs? Does he write to all 11, or nine, or seven? Will the territory be divided up by the MEPs, like a colony, into districts? Will each MEP have a little parish or bailiwick? Will all electors write to the Minister or the Commissioner on the same subject?
"the arguments presented today by the hon. Member for Moray and . . . by the Labour party are unanswerable."--[Official Report, 6 July 1993; Vol. 228, c. 198.]
I wonder why it is not possible, for the purposes of proportionality, to have an additional Member of the European Parliament for Scotland under the new system.
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