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Mr. Cawsey: I covered one of those points earlier when I mentioned the difficulties that Members of the European Parliament face and the sheer impossibility of getting feedback from the electorate. People in European elections vote on party lines, certainly more so than in local elections, because they do not know enough about the candidates or the constituency, which often has little relevance to them.
The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Mr. Loughton) asks why the turnout is lower in local government elections than in general elections. It is because local government seats are often very safe, and because the electorate perceive that local government is overcentralised. They think that it does not matter whom they elect because all the decisions are taken in Westminster and, under capping, local politicians have to impose Government policy.
I led North Lincolnshire council for two years after it was formed recently. The budgets and capping regime imposed by the previous Government were so precise that both the Conservative and Labour parties had the same budget, not because we suddenly agreed on policy but because there was no room for manoeuvre.
People do not vote if their votes do not make a difference, which they often do not in local government elections or in European elections; but, by gum, their
votes made a difference on 1 May, because the Government changed hands. That is why turnouts were higher in May than for local government elections and for European elections.
Mr. Loughton:
On that logic, the hon. Gentleman appears to have resigned himself to the fact that people will not vote in European elections because their votes will not make any difference. The European Parliament and the Commission will do what they like and impose their policies on our people. That is what he is saying. Is he in favour of that?
Mr. Cawsey:
No, I am not in favour of that and it is not what I am saying. What will make people vote is the belief that their vote counts. Too many people in too many constituencies--especially European constituencies--feel that their vote counts for nothing. Our aim must be to increase participation and thus to increase democracy.
Mr. Drew:
One of the strongest arguments in favour of a regional list system, to which I alluded earlier, is the need to create a regional identity. If regional identities are created, people will vote and take an interest in whom they are electing. Two issues already have a regional dimension--agriculture and fishing--and I can think of no better examples for the south-west, which is my part of the world. Another idea would be--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. The hon. Gentleman must be brief.
Mr. Drew:
Does my hon. Friend agree that concentration on such issues would increase turnout?
Mr. Cawsey:
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The argument that the electoral arrangements in this country are beyond criticism is beyond belief and stunningly complacent. We should consider reforms that would encourage participation and make votes count, because increased participation improves democracy. A more open list would give the maximum incentive to participation at the next European elections. I am pleased to commend the Bill to the House.
Mr. Robert Syms (Poole):
We have heard some good contributions from hon. Members on both sides in this important debate. There will be many more debates on electoral reform. The next few years will be a psephologist's dream. Many of those wrote obscure books many years ago will make a fortune selling books on various electoral systems.
I am pleased to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd). I had the honour of fighting Walsall, North in 1992, which is the constituency next to his. I can honestly say that he is regarded with respect and irritation by people in his area, because he is an independent-minded Member of Parliament. He is a perfect example of a party member who represents his constituency well in the Chamber. He is not the sort who would naturally be put on a party list. I mean that as a compliment. Any Parliament ought to have a broad range of opinion.
The first-past-the-post system has evolved over the past 150 years. It has suited us well because it suits the temperament of the British people. It is simple, it is quick, it delivers effective democratic rule and, most important, it has a strong constituency link. At every selection committee, the first question that a candidate is asked is whether he or she will live in the constituency. People put a high premium on having their Member of Parliament as part of the community.
In many respects, first past the post is the most accountable system. Every time we vote, we are accountable. Every time we write a letter to a constituent, we are accountable. If we are not here, we are accountable. If we cannot go to the annual general meeting of the local Women's Institute this year, we know that we must go next year because people hold us to account. We are meant to represent our constituencies and we are meant to be there. That is a tremendous strength of our system.
The Bill proposes a proportional representation closed list system. Despite what the Home Secretary said earlier about looking at other options, that is what is proposed. That will give electors no choice but to pick a political party--or an independent. They can exercise no judgment about whether the first, second, third or fourth candidate on a list has particular merits. That is bad for democracy. As has been said earlier, the first on the list could go on holiday to the Caribbean and have a lovely time while the No. 3 was working extremely hard to ensure that he or she was just above the line to be elected for that region.
The Home Secretary has said that the size of European parliamentary seats provides a stronger argument for moving away from first past the post, but we are creating such vast regions that there will be no strong link between MEPs and their electors. Current MEPs are all linked to towns, cities or counties.
Most of us have certain loyalties. We have loyalties to our country and sometimes to our county or the borough that we grew up in or represent. Those links are important. Most MEPs have strong links with their local authorities because, irrespective of their political character, those authorities will regularly contact their MEP for information, advice and support. As a Member of this Parliament, it is useful for me to know who represents Dorset and East Devon in the European Parliament. The seven or eight Members of Parliament in that area know him. That is what accountability is about.
Political parties have never played a predominant role in the way in which we have organised our affairs. Only in 1969, under the Representation of the People Act, when the voting age was reduced to 18, did we put the political labels on ballot papers for both local and national elections. The suggested system will put political parties directly into the political process as never before.
Moreover, that would lead to bad practices. We all represent our constituencies, as Members of the European Parliament do. People go to their representatives with their problems, whether they voted Labour, Liberal Democrat or Conservative, or even if they did not vote at all. In my surgery I find people of all political persuasions, so I have to see the problems that people from all walks of life have.
If a region has two or three Conservative Members, plus some Labour, some Liberal Democrat and an independent, people with problems will go to the
representative who shares their political point of view. That is not necessarily progress, and is not the best way of improving political representation.
There is also an important argument concerning the size of regions. Inevitably, however we divide the vote, the larger the region the more likely a minor party is to achieve representation. If there are 10 or 11 Members and the minor party crosses a threshold of 9 or 10 per cent., it will get representation. If there are three or four Members, minor parties will need 20 or 25 per cent. of the vote to achieve representation.
It would be fairer if we picked an electoral system in which every constituency was the same size. The differential sizes of regions will mean that more independents will stand in some than in others. If a gentleman with deep pockets wants to stand for the European Parliament, he will inevitably go to the South East region, because the threshold for being elected will be far better there than in Wales or the North East, for example.
That will lead to unfairness within the system. In the North West and the South East, we shall find more odd bods and a greater range of candidates, simply because the sizes of those regions will mean that such people's chances of election are far better. Meanwhile, life for candidates from the major parties standing in Wales or the North East will be relatively easy.
The Irish experience in the middle part of this century was that under the single transferable vote system, with large constituencies of nine to 12 Members, it was almost impossible to form a Government without a mass coalition of three or four parties. Ireland reduced the size of the constituencies so that each had only three to five Members, because the arithmetic then gave the prospect of getting much nearer to a majority in the Dail. De Valera's party, which was the largest, could command an overall majority on occasions, because the size of the areas had been reduced.
I hope that the Government will consider seriously the size of the regions that they propose. It would be beneficial if some of the larger regions were split in two, to keep at least some link with the locality, and to diminish the size of the constituencies.
The general question of by-elections has not been much raised, although the Home Secretary talked about by-elections in certain circumstances. No doubt, under the STV system in Northern Ireland there would have to be a by-election. In regions, there would be a by-election unless the place could be filled through the list, and certainly if it was an independent who had happened to die.
I know that we are going into new territory here, but I believe that that is an important issue. Under the Bill, regulations on such matters, although laid before the House, would not be debated. If we are to move towards a new system, we need to set out clear ground rules governing when a by-election would and would not be called.
At present, under the European Parliamentary Elections Act 1978, the only discretion that the Government have is to set the date of a by-election. Under the existing system, that is all that they need. However, after the proposed changes there may be some discretion about whether there is to be a by-election at all. For example, whether Scotland has to turn out for a by-election on a particular Thursday--under the first-past-the-post system,
presumably, if there is only one vacancy--may depend on the good will of a particular Home Secretary. That would be wrong.
9.4 pm
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